[arch-dev-public] Windows Subsystem Linux - Arch Linux as official container?
Hello everybody, I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO of Microsoft.
They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be interested to participate in this project.
The steps for getting into the project are:
* Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our trademark holders for this step) * modifying our docker container a little bit * pushing it into the microsoft appstore
So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?
Here are some pros and contras:
pro: - CentOS and Ubuntu are there too - Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux - might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in general) - Nice way to test our docker image in production - People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch Linux at work as well - More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?
contras: - Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain) - More Newbies? - Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it) - If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?
I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :) I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week. I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.
So deadline is 2018-02-7
-- Chris
On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 22:00:28 +0100 Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public arch-dev-public@archlinux.org wrote:
Hello everybody, I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO of Microsoft.
They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be interested to participate in this project.
The steps for getting into the project are:
- Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our trademark holders for this step)
- modifying our docker container a little bit
- pushing it into the microsoft appstore
So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?
Here are some pros and contras:
pro: - CentOS and Ubuntu are there too - Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux - might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in general) - Nice way to test our docker image in production - People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch Linux at work as well - More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?
contras: - Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain) - More Newbies? - Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it) - If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?
I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :) I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week. I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.
So deadline is 2018-02-7
-- Chris
This has come up before, my personal preference is that if you want Arch is WSL, go ahead and install Arch in WSL. It's not difficult by just using the bootstrap image. IMO, this would be similar to us supporting Manjaro, Antergos, or any other automatic, pre-configured and setup system.
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 03:09:16PM -0600, Public mailing list for Arch Linux development wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 22:00:28 +0100 Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public arch-dev-public@archlinux.org wrote:
Hello everybody, I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO of Microsoft.
They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be interested to participate in this project.
The steps for getting into the project are:
- Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our trademark holders for this step)
- modifying our docker container a little bit
- pushing it into the microsoft appstore
So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?
Here are some pros and contras:
pro: - CentOS and Ubuntu are there too - Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux - might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in general) - Nice way to test our docker image in production - People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch Linux at work as well - More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?
contras: - Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain) - More Newbies? - Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it) - If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?
I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :) I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week. I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.
So deadline is 2018-02-7
-- Chris
This has come up before, my personal preference is that if you want Arch is WSL, go ahead and install Arch in WSL. It's not difficult by just using the bootstrap image. IMO, this would be similar to us supporting Manjaro, Antergos, or any other automatic, pre-configured and setup system.
The difference would be "it's official". There are Arch Linux WSL containers at the moment btw:
https://github.com/alwsl/alwsl
But it's nothing official.
On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 22:14:55 +0100 Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public arch-dev-public@archlinux.org wrote:
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 03:09:16PM -0600, Public mailing list for Arch Linux development wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 22:00:28 +0100 Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public arch-dev-public@archlinux.org wrote:
Hello everybody, I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO of Microsoft.
They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be interested to participate in this project.
The steps for getting into the project are:
- Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our trademark holders for this step)
- modifying our docker container a little bit
- pushing it into the microsoft appstore
So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?
Here are some pros and contras:
pro: - CentOS and Ubuntu are there too - Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux - might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in general) - Nice way to test our docker image in production - People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch Linux at work as well - More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?
contras: - Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain) - More Newbies? - Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it) - If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?
I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :) I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week. I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.
So deadline is 2018-02-7
-- Chris
This has come up before, my personal preference is that if you want Arch is WSL, go ahead and install Arch in WSL. It's not difficult by just using the bootstrap image. IMO, this would be similar to us supporting Manjaro, Antergos, or any other automatic, pre-configured and setup system.
The difference would be "it's official". There are Arch Linux WSL containers at the moment btw:
https://github.com/alwsl/alwsl
But it's nothing official.
And that's my point, it would be official; and I don't think the pre-configured, ready-to-to setup is where Arch is in the marketplace, and shouldn't be. Arch is a niche distro catering to a specific segment, Windows converts and people that want things easy is not that segment.
Whoa, this is so good to bash that I can't decide where to begin.
Microsoft started noticing Linux (or rather stopped to fight it so valiantly) when they realized where the money is. On this ground alone I don't see a reason to help some corporation in putting our logo on their website so they can brag how they love Linux now, especially when there are no real gains for us in all of this.
If you want more technical angle, at least few months ago installing Arch on WSL required patched glibc. I won't maintain such patches because of something I completely don't care about. Even if it was solved since, good luck with debugging all possible heisenbugs that can be encountered due to sloppy implementation of Linux syscalls on Windows. If the proposal gets through, I'm not going to spend time on any of such reports at all, making heavy use of EWONTFIX.
I don't use Windows and I don't care about WSL. Having Docker image makes sense as it can bring some value for people using different distributions for development or testing purposes alone. That can't be said about WSL.
Bartłomiej
[2018-01-29 22:00:28 +0100] Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public:
They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be interested to participate in this project.
The steps for getting into the project are:
- Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our trademark holders for this step)
- modifying our docker container a little bit
- pushing it into the microsoft appstore
Setups like this make me uncomfortable for one reason: we would not be in control of this docker image or its distribution. This officially endorsed Arch Linux image could be modified in any way Microsoft wants. I'd be really surprised if we did not grant them this right as part of agreeing to their appstore terms. Sure, we could notice the changes eventually and pull back our official endorsement, but would they have to stop using our trademark the moment we told them to? (That's not abstract paranoia either: things like this happened with sourceforge and, well, is Microsoft more trustworthy than Dice? Tough question.)
On the other hand, my profound lack of interest for WSL means I truly have no idea whether this can be useful for others, so I'll vote blank.
Cheers.
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 10:00:28PM +0100, Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public wrote:
- Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our trademark holders for this step)
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/windows/agreements/app-developer-agre...
"""You grant Microsoft, its agents, contractors, licensees, marketing partners, and Affiliates the right to use, reproduce, display, publicly perform and publish your entity name, App or portion of your App, In-App Product, and the App Assets for each App, [...] (iii) in any marketing, presentations, demonstrations, trade shows, industry events, and press releases, for the App, In-App Product, Windows, Windows Phone, Xbox hardware and accessories, Xbox Live Services, Xbox.com and other Windows, Windows Phone and/or Xbox-related websites and each of their successor platforms, and/or any other Microsoft websites, products and services related to the Store and/or Apps..."""
So how many people would be comfortable with Arch Linux appearing on the screen next time Satya Nadella proclaims "Microsoft loves Open Source"? I won't.
- CentOS and Ubuntu are there too
I don't really see how this helps anything. Both companies have mony to deal with issues and getting people to work on the support. We don't.
On 01/29/2018 04:00 PM, Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public wrote:
I would like to hear as much feedback as possible. So don't be shy :) I want to give feedback to the microsoft guys in round about 1 week. I guess that should be enough to dicuss this topic.
I'd like to reiterate what everyone else seems to be saying: WSL is too fragile to offer real guarantees from our end, and AFAICT you're the only person who even wants to offer it in the first place. So I'm not sure what Arch Linux gets out of this.
It seems like the only thing that would actually happen is that Microsoft gets to advertise that *we* support *them*, and then point people who complain at you.
Having you "maintain" this, would seem to be a lot more complicated than maintaining docker or VM images, since both of the latter are at least compatible with basic things like glibc so only the packaging actually needs to be maintained. We cannot really say this about WSL, so you would have to be maintaining [core] as well.
If people really want Arch Linux in WSL, they can do that today. It works, sort of, but it also pops up odd issues like the aforementioned glibc stuff. Do you have a plan for how you would work with Microsoft to get that fixed, without ultimately asking other Devs/TUs to aid in the process? Because this is the absolute minimum threshold for being able to actually say that we as a distro support WSL.
Am 29.01.2018 um 22:00 schrieb Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public:
Hello everybody, I would like to start a discussion about Windows Subsystem Linux and Arch linux. You all might know that Microsoft has increased their participation in open source software a lot since Satya Nadella is CEO of Microsoft.
They even implemented a subsystem on Windows 10 for executing natively ELF binaries on Windows. This system is based on docker images and some nice guys from Microsoft have asked Allan and me if Arch Linux would be interested to participate in this project.
The steps for getting into the project are:
- Signup in the Microsoft Appstore (we would get a free voucher if we want to participate) as Organization (we need the ok from one of our trademark holders for this step)
- modifying our docker container a little bit
- pushing it into the microsoft appstore
So what do you think? Should we participate in that project?
Here are some pros and contras:
pro: - CentOS and Ubuntu are there too - Would be a nice chance to increase the awareness about Arch Linux - might get people to change from Windows to Arch Linux (or linux in general) - Nice way to test our docker image in production - People who are forced to work on windows at work can use Arch Linux at work as well - More bugreports / feedback / forum activity?
contras: - Microsoft is Microsoft (I think I don't need to explain) - More Newbies? - Somebody would need to maintain it (I would do it) - If Arch Linux partnerships with Microsoft could lead into bad image?
I'd like to give some feedback too. Personally, I love WSL, since I am stuck with Windows 10 at work and it gives me certain applications I otherwise don't have.
AFAIK, with the "Fall Creators Update" Version, they updated WSL to only be available via the appstore and as far as I can see, this makes installing Arch via other means significantly more difficult.
Right now, I only have experience with the version before the fall creators update, and that has issues:
* As others mentioned, some glibc functionality relies on certain clone() flags that WSL did/does not support. * pacman needs an LD_PRELOAD hack since it insists on using chroot even without a --root option, but WSL does/did not have chroot.
I would hope they fixed these problems by now, but I did not check yet.
I personally would love to see an official WSL Arch image, since it's very useful to me. That said, I don't like the way they promote WSL, because it is Linux the way that wine is Windows (read: it isn't).
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 20:09:26 +0100 Thomas Bächler via arch-dev-public arch-dev-public@archlinux.org wrote:
Right now, I only have experience with the version before the fall creators update, and that has issues:
- As others mentioned, some glibc functionality relies on certain
clone() flags that WSL did/does not support.
- pacman needs an LD_PRELOAD hack since it insists on using chroot even
without a --root option, but WSL does/did not have chroot.
Both are fixed, chroot is supported in the Fall Creators update and the glibc issues have been fixed since.
The addition of chroot makes it simple to install Arch. Just let it setup Ubuntu, then use the bootstrap image to install Arch. Copy a couple of dirs in Windows and you're done.
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 10:00:28PM +0100, Public mailing list for Arch Linux development wrote:
So deadline is 2018-02-7
-- Chris
Hello everybody, sorry for the delay. I thought about this a little bit longer and I came to the conclusion that this project will not work without the full support of all developers. So I guess, I will inform Microsoft that we won't participate in their programm. Thanks for the nice and open discussion.
-- chris
On 7 March 2018 at 14:58, Christian Rebischke via arch-dev-public arch-dev-public@archlinux.org wrote:
Hello everybody, sorry for the delay. I thought about this a little bit longer and I came to the conclusion that this project will not work without the full support of all developers. So I guess, I will inform Microsoft that we won't participate in their programm. Thanks for the nice and open discussion.
Ahh, too bad I noticed this late. I am one of those forced on to Windows and it has really taken a toll on my packaging duties.
I would have liked to see this materialize, but I guess the other suggestion about building off of another image is OK too.
-- GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1
participants (8)
-
Bartłomiej Piotrowski
-
Christian Rebischke
-
Doug Newgard
-
Eli Schwartz
-
Gaetan Bisson
-
Morten Linderud
-
Rashif Ray Rahman
-
Thomas Bächler