[arch-dev-public] Archlinux [current] status

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[arch-dev-public] Away for a while

Tobias Powalowski

8 May 2007 8 May '07

8:30 p.m.

Hi something is really going wrong at the moment. People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the packaging work. I start here only with [current] first. Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably also of doing quite some update tirades through current. Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for our own stuff, correct me if im wrong. We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan It's time to cleanup [current]. Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to orphan them. After that period, look whats left if noone feels responsable for a package make a list of possible drops or try to find one on ML who wants to maintain it. It's better to have 1 maintainer for just 1 package who is active and knows the package well, then 1 who just cross updates because he saw the version bump. come on guys participate it's the base of our distro! Without it Arch cannot work. greetings tpowa -- Tobias Powalowski Archlinux Developer & Package Maintainer (tpowa) http://www.archlinux.org tpowa@archlinux.org

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Roman Kyrylych

8 May 8 May

8:35 p.m.

2007/5/8, Tobias Powalowski :

...

Hi something is really going wrong at the moment. People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the packaging work. I start here only with [current] first. Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably also of doing quite some update tirades through current.

Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for our own stuff, correct me if im wrong.

We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan

Arjan resigned recently Woody - said he resigns as a maintainer some time ago Aurelien - resigned some time ago? Gregor? He is listed only on Flyspray, is he a dev? -- Roman Kyrylych (Роман Кирилич)

Tobias Kieslich

9:33 p.m.

Hi, a couple of thoughts on this one. Yes, we have some issues at the moment. And part of it is IMHO that some people have too much workload and hence don't get enough fun out of the work for ArchLinux. There are a couple of issues to think about: 1. We have many packages in current and extra and we have a whole bunch of them we just have around for legacy reasons, because at one point they were needed and hardly used at all anymore. We don't get any feedback on them until we threaten users here and there to toss them from the repos and they start to wine. Let's move them out to unsupported. We should get rid of them. 2. Developers should cut back on individual package load and really support only what we want to maintain and pass on other packages to other and new devs. 3. More developers will raise issues, when it comes to releasing because we have to syncronise the efforts. But we will need people, that pickup some loose ends. 4. Arch64 is a 2 man show, Andy and ise. There should be some more support for them. I really think we should add some people here. ISE, write a mail to Jason to get access to current. Andy, Ise, how many people do you want and do you have suggestions? 5. Pacbuild. Yes it will take a good bunch of workload from package maintainance. But until then we will have to create some time and space to get it rolling at all. Most Devs are loaded with maintainance. 6. Repository restructuring. This is very important, as it sets somehow priorities and defines the releases. It should happen relatively soon. I know this is just listing the issues. But I think it puts Tpowas rant into some context. I have no definites solution to it atm, but my best guess is that we will have to come up with a list of things and some time frames. And we should have a developer meeting specific to the issue. This is not meant to undermine the efforts in creating goals etc for Archlinux but we have to come up with some changes soon as more developers get a bit frustrated. My suggestion is that: 1. Go through the package list and toss lingering stuff (aka move to usupported). Everyone goes through its own packages and after a while we also dump the orphans. Some Devs might wanna get rid of Packages they don't use anymore (eg. I'd love to disown mono*, some gnome stuff some packages I don't use at all). By then evryone should make sure s/he has a sane workload. I hope this will also take some load from the Arch64 guys. 2. Restructure the repositories 3. Get pacbuild rolling I don't wanna strip Arch down to nothing, but I wanna make sure paeople have fun working at it. -T

Andreas Radke

10:04 p.m.

Am Tue, 8 May 2007 14:33:04 -0700 schrieb Tobias Kieslich :

...

4. Arch64 is a 2 man show, Andy and ise. There should be some more support for them. I really think we should add some people here. ISE, write a mail to Jason to get access to current. Andy, Ise, how many people do you want and do you have suggestions?

we both already have cvs access to all repos. we are still not allowed to maintain packages. we are not listed in the dashboard. but if this would change we would have to decide how to make i686 devs rebuild the packages that are maintained by x86_64 devs. to be honest: i see noone out there beeing a candidate for a x86_64 packager except a build bot for crossbuilds. i always thought current i686 devs with 64bit capable hardware would more test the x86_64 port and go dual or might switch supporting our architecture. so far only Jan did that and got access for x86_64 repos but does not use it in reality. also i got dissapointed by some fresh x86_64 users we brought up here that left us quicker than we thought. Sry. I have no better idea right now. Andy

Jason Chu

9 May 9 May

2:50 p.m.

On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...

Hi something is really going wrong at the moment. People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the packaging work. I start here only with [current] first. Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably also of doing quite some update tirades through current.

Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for our own stuff, correct me if im wrong.

We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan

It's time to cleanup [current]. Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to orphan them.

Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? This will create a lot of orphans very quickly. Jason

Tobias Powalowski

2:54 p.m.

...

On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
Hi something is really going wrong at the moment. People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the packaging work. I start here only with [current] first. Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably also of doing quite some update tirades through current.

Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for our own stuff, correct me if im wrong.

We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan

It's time to cleanup [current]. Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to orphan them.

Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? This will create a lot of orphans very quickly.

Jason Well that way you see quickly who wants to take packages and which ones need

Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2007 schrieb Jason Chu: maintainers, im sick of browsing judds and dorphells dashboard to find the flagged ones, there are also some that are not outdated at all. greetings tpowa -- Tobias Powalowski Archlinux Developer & Package Maintainer (tpowa) http://www.archlinux.org tpowa@archlinux.org

Jason Chu

3:01 p.m.

On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 04:54:43PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...

...
On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
Hi something is really going wrong at the moment. People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the packaging work. I start here only with [current] first. Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably also of doing quite some update tirades through current.

Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for our own stuff, correct me if im wrong.

We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan

It's time to cleanup [current]. Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to orphan them.

Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? This will create a lot of orphans very quickly.

Jason Well that way you see quickly who wants to take packages and which ones need

Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2007 schrieb Jason Chu: maintainers, im sick of browsing judds and dorphells dashboard to find the flagged ones, there are also some that are not outdated at all.

greetings tpowa

I was just thinking there might be a few packages that each of the developers (mostly Judd) wants to hang on to. If you orphan all of them, then they'll have to snatch them back up again. Jason

Roman Kyrylych

3:05 p.m.

2007/5/9, Jason Chu :

...

On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 04:54:43PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2007 schrieb Jason Chu:

...
On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
It's time to cleanup [current]. Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to orphan them.

...

...
...
Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? This will create a lot of orphans very quickly.

...

...
Well that way you see quickly who wants to take packages and which ones need maintainers, im sick of browsing judds and dorphells dashboard to find the flagged ones, there are also some that are not outdated at all.

...

I was just thinking there might be a few packages that each of the developers (mostly Judd) wants to hang on to. If you orphan all of them, then they'll have to snatch them back up again.

Is this really a problem? By that time much things should change. We're (supposed to be) moving to shared maintainership and package divisions anyway. -- Roman Kyrylych (Роман Кирилич)

Aaron Griffin

3:42 p.m.

On 5/9/07, Jason Chu wrote:

...

On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 04:54:43PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
...
On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
Hi something is really going wrong at the moment. People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the packaging work. I start here only with [current] first. Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably also of doing quite some update tirades through current.

Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for our own stuff, correct me if im wrong.

We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan

It's time to cleanup [current]. Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to orphan them.

Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? This will create a lot of orphans very quickly.

Jason Well that way you see quickly who wants to take packages and which ones need

Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2007 schrieb Jason Chu: maintainers, im sick of browsing judds and dorphells dashboard to find the flagged ones, there are also some that are not outdated at all.

greetings tpowa

I was just thinking there might be a few packages that each of the developers (mostly Judd) wants to hang on to. If you orphan all of them, then they'll have to snatch them back up again.

They could always ask. Besides, I don't see any hurt here besides the false pride that comes with single-ownership of a package ("that's MY package").

Jason Chu

5:04 p.m.

On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 10:42:12AM -0500, Aaron Griffin wrote:

...

On 5/9/07, Jason Chu wrote:

...
On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 04:54:43PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
...
On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
Hi something is really going wrong at the moment. People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the packaging work. I start here only with [current] first. Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably also of doing quite some update tirades through current.

Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for our own stuff, correct me if im wrong.

We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan

It's time to cleanup [current]. Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to orphan them.

Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? This will create a lot of orphans very quickly.

Jason Well that way you see quickly who wants to take packages and which ones need

Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2007 schrieb Jason Chu: maintainers, im sick of browsing judds and dorphells dashboard to find the flagged ones, there are also some that are not outdated at all.

greetings tpowa

I was just thinking there might be a few packages that each of the developers (mostly Judd) wants to hang on to. If you orphan all of them, then they'll have to snatch them back up again.

They could always ask. Besides, I don't see any hurt here besides the false pride that comes with single-ownership of a package ("that's MY package").

Alright, I conceed. Let's do this thing! Jason

Aaron Griffin

5:52 p.m.

On 5/9/07, Jason Chu wrote:

...

On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 10:42:12AM -0500, Aaron Griffin wrote:

...
On 5/9/07, Jason Chu wrote:

...
On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 04:54:43PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
...
On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
Hi something is really going wrong at the moment. People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the packaging work. I start here only with [current] first. Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably also of doing quite some update tirades through current.

Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for our own stuff, correct me if im wrong.

We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan

It's time to cleanup [current]. Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to orphan them.

Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? This will create a lot of orphans very quickly.

Jason Well that way you see quickly who wants to take packages and which ones need

Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2007 schrieb Jason Chu: maintainers, im sick of browsing judds and dorphells dashboard to find the flagged ones, there are also some that are not outdated at all.

greetings tpowa

I was just thinking there might be a few packages that each of the developers (mostly Judd) wants to hang on to. If you orphan all of them, then they'll have to snatch them back up again.

They could always ask. Besides, I don't see any hurt here besides the false pride that comes with single-ownership of a package ("that's MY package").

Alright, I conceed. Let's do this thing!

Jason, can you take this task on? I want to a) figure out a solution to the pacman upgrade issue b) deal with the package cleanup So I don't have huge amounts of time to spare at the moment.

Jason Chu

6:07 p.m.

On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 12:52:31PM -0500, Aaron Griffin wrote:

...

On 5/9/07, Jason Chu wrote:

...
On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 10:42:12AM -0500, Aaron Griffin wrote:

...
On 5/9/07, Jason Chu wrote:

...
On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 04:54:43PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
...
On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote: > Hi > something is really going wrong at the moment. > People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the > packaging work. > I start here only with [current] first. > Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably > also of doing quite some update tirades through current. > > Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most > [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for > our own stuff, correct me if im wrong. > > We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. > Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan > > It's time to cleanup [current]. > Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor > 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. > Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package > works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to > orphan them.

Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? This will create a lot of orphans very quickly.

Jason Well that way you see quickly who wants to take packages and which ones need

Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2007 schrieb Jason Chu: maintainers, im sick of browsing judds and dorphells dashboard to find the flagged ones, there are also some that are not outdated at all.

greetings tpowa

I was just thinking there might be a few packages that each of the developers (mostly Judd) wants to hang on to. If you orphan all of them, then they'll have to snatch them back up again.

They could always ask. Besides, I don't see any hurt here besides the false pride that comes with single-ownership of a package ("that's MY package").

Alright, I conceed. Let's do this thing!

Jason, can you take this task on? I want to a) figure out a solution to the pacman upgrade issue b) deal with the package cleanup So I don't have huge amounts of time to spare at the moment.

I am also lacking in time. Can you explain the pacman upgrade issue a little better (there was a bug report about it at one point, right?)? I will make sure something gets done, but I doubt I'll be the one to do it. Jason

Aaron Griffin

11 May 11 May

6:44 a.m.

On 5/9/07, Jason Chu wrote:

...

On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 12:52:31PM -0500, Aaron Griffin wrote:

...
On 5/9/07, Jason Chu wrote:

...
On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 10:42:12AM -0500, Aaron Griffin wrote:

...
On 5/9/07, Jason Chu wrote:

...
On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 04:54:43PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
Am Mittwoch, 9. Mai 2007 schrieb Jason Chu: > On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote: > > Hi > > something is really going wrong at the moment. > > People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the > > packaging work. > > I start here only with [current] first. > > Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably > > also of doing quite some update tirades through current. > > > > Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most > > [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for > > our own stuff, correct me if im wrong. > > > > We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. > > Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan > > > > It's time to cleanup [current]. > > Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor > > 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. > > Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package > > works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to > > orphan them. > > Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? > This will create a lot of orphans very quickly. > > Jason Well that way you see quickly who wants to take packages and which ones need maintainers, im sick of browsing judds and dorphells dashboard to find the flagged ones, there are also some that are not outdated at all.

greetings tpowa

I was just thinking there might be a few packages that each of the developers (mostly Judd) wants to hang on to. If you orphan all of them, then they'll have to snatch them back up again.

They could always ask. Besides, I don't see any hurt here besides the false pride that comes with single-ownership of a package ("that's MY package").

Alright, I conceed. Let's do this thing!

Jason, can you take this task on? I want to a) figure out a solution to the pacman upgrade issue b) deal with the package cleanup So I don't have huge amounts of time to spare at the moment.

I am also lacking in time. Can you explain the pacman upgrade issue a little better (there was a bug report about it at one point, right?)?

I will make sure something gets done, but I doubt I'll be the one to do it.

Ok, so I've orphaned all of dorphell's and aurelien's packages based on discussion here and earlier threads about "who is active". I don't really want to force-orphan judd's packages, but if there is something someone really wants, I'll do swap it over to them. So right now we have a _lot_ of orphans (627 at the time of this writing). Here's what I'd like you all to do: Go through the orphan list and adopt anything you think is important and/or what you use. If you see a package that you know is useless or just doesn't belong in extra, please add it to the Package Cleanup wiki page [1]. I *will* be doing cleanup based on sentiment there this weekend. I'd highly suggest that if any one of you guys takes issue with any of that cleanup, you bring it up. In addition, I'm going to scan through all out packages and find "stand alone" ones - or "leaf packages" in Jason-speak, heh - this will be a quick and dirty way to remove some of these extra (and possibly useless) libs we have just laying around in there. Let me know if you have any problems with this - I'm not against doing things differently, this just seems to be the consensus at the current time. Thanks, Aaron [1] http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Package_Cleanup

Travis Willard

12:20 p.m.

...

So right now we have a _lot_ of orphans (627 at the time of this writing). Here's what I'd like you all to do:

593 now - it's going down, whoo

...

Go through the orphan list and adopt anything you think is important and/or what you use.

Done.

...

If you see a package that you know is useless or just doesn't belong in extra, please add it to the Package Cleanup wiki page [1].

I think I just realized how little I know about general linux software - looking over that list, I thought to myself "Important? dunno. Important? dunno." and so on. For all I know, I could be the maintainer of some fairly useless pieces of software. :P -- Travis

Paul Mattal

2:31 p.m.

Travis Willard wrote:

...

...
So right now we have a _lot_ of orphans (627 at the time of this writing). Here's what I'd like you all to do:

593 now - it's going down, whoo

Actually, this is a very good time for anyone who wants to orphan things they want.. while others are in the mode of picking things up. You can always go take it again later if nobody else wants it. Just something to think about. I know I shed a few packages and picked up several significant new ones. If Judd wishes, I will take Postgres. I already took the libs package with that in mind. Hoping to do some updates on my new packages over the next week. - P

Dale Blount

2:51 p.m.

On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 10:31 -0400, Paul Mattal wrote:

...

Travis Willard wrote:

...
...
So right now we have a _lot_ of orphans (627 at the time of this writing). Here's what I'd like you all to do:

593 now - it's going down, whoo

Actually, this is a very good time for anyone who wants to orphan things they want.. while others are in the mode of picking things up. You can always go take it again later if nobody else wants it.

I've just dropped the packages that were "mine" but I haven't updated in a while - evolution,mozilla stuff, etc. Appropriate people make adopt those now. Also, I dropped the pidgin plugins/enc packages so Dan could pick it up since they normally need recompiled when pidgin does. Also picked up a few to balance those out. Dale

Aaron Griffin

3:24 p.m.

On 5/11/07, Paul Mattal wrote:

...

If Judd wishes, I will take Postgres. I already took the libs package with that in mind.

Because judd is rather hard to contact some times, what I did with a few packages neri wanted is just assign them to him - I think it's better to have someone who *wants* the package. I will assign postgres to you... hmmm how about right now (done, by the way)

Paul Mattal

9 May 9 May

3 p.m.

Jason Chu wrote:

...

On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 10:30:59PM +0200, Tobias Powalowski wrote:

...
Hi something is really going wrong at the moment. People claim for having other interests or not time for doing the packaging work. I start here only with [current] first. Jan quit doing maintenance of important parts of our distro and probably also of doing quite some update tirades through current.

Let me stress this, from my point of view Jan and me did the most [current] updates the last weeks, even if we didn't use the software for our own stuff, correct me if im wrong.

We have inactive package maintainers, no doubt. Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor, Woody, Arjan

It's time to cleanup [current]. Orphan all packages of Judd, Dorphell, Aurelien, Gregor 1 week of time to grab what packages you wanna have. Keep in mind it's your job then to test and ensure that the package works! Please one of the enablers do this, or give me the permission to orphan them.

Is it possible to have a step before this one that's not as disruptive? This will create a lot of orphans very quickly.

Is the theory that orphaning would be disruptive because people would start acting quickly and break stuff? Otherwise, I'm not sure how having more orphans would cause disruption. It would be better to know who's stepping up to the plate on which packages, and which are up for grabs. In general, I think we should be less afraid of orphans. Likewise, we should be less afraid to adopt. This would be helped by a system that allows multiple maintainers for each package. - P

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participants (9)

Aaron Griffin
Andreas Radke
Dale Blount
Jason Chu
Paul Mattal
Roman Kyrylych
Tobias Kieslich
Tobias Powalowski
Travis Willard