[arch-dev-public] AUR ToS (aka making AUR user names public)
Hi, I was recently contacted by a Polish researcher asking for a list of AUR account names. I did not expect this to be controversial but a couple of Trusted Users raised concerns on IRC, so I decided to move this to the public mailing list and discuss the whole topic in generality. I would like to head more opinions but please read the whole email and give it a second thought before simply bringing up the usual privacy arguments mentioned below. My original questions was: Are we fine with sharing the list of AUR accounts names (only user names, no real names or email addresses) with a researcher that seems trustworthy and agrees to not share the data in any form other than the resulting anonymized statistics? In this particular case, we are talking about Dorota Celinska [1] from the University of Warsaw, Faculty of Economic Sciences [2], see [3] for a list of her publications and [4] for a summary of her research project funded recently by the Polish National Science Centre. She needs the list of user names to perform a segmentation analysis, including users which were active on the older AUR releases both do not show any activity on AUR 4. She would also like to use the user names as identifiers to establish connections with other platforms, such as GitHub. The next question is: Would it make sense to even make this data publicly available? Would it make sense to extend our RPC interface such that one can search for users names? GitHub, for example, already provides such an interface [5]. Let me quickly summarize some arguments for this idea which came up on IRC: * User names are mostly identifiers. It is questionable whether they can/should be considered personal/private information. Maybe this can only be answered by a lawyer, though. * The user names of all accounts with any kind of public activity, like uploading a package, filing a request, writing a comment, are public already. * After logging into the aurweb interface, you can already check whether an account with a given user name exists because the account details page URIs have the form https://aur.archlinux.org/account/$username. This means that for any platform providing a list of user names (such as GitHub), you can "establish connections" with the AUR already. Now the arguments against: * Principle of data economy: We should not share any kind of information we do not need to share. * Sharing user names lowers the threshold for sharing other information which is considered more confidential. * Users can (and should) already use crawlers to fetch the user names. For example, the user names of all package maintainers and comment authors appear on the package details pages. The names of all users filing package requests appear in the mailing list archives etc. * We do not have ToS so we better not share anything. I, personally, find the second last argument a very weak one. Telling users to build crawlers scraping an brute-forcing our HTML pages makes life difficult for both them and us. What do you think? On the other side of the coin, the last argument is a very good one and it brings me to my last point. Independently of the outcome of this discussion, I think we should add some ToS that users need to agree upon when registering. It should contain information on liability and on privacy. Is anybody willing to write a draft? Do we need the support of a lawyer here? Thank you for your time and have a nice Sunday! Regards, Lukas [1] http://coin.wne.uw.edu.pl/dcelinska/en/ [2] https://www.wne.uw.edu.pl/index.php/en/ [3] http://coin.wne.uw.edu.pl/dcelinska/en/pages/publications.html [4] https://ncn.gov.pl/sites/default/files/listy-rankingowe/2016-03-15/streszcze... [5] https://developer.github.com/v3/users/
On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 14:35:05 +0100 Lukas Fleischer <lfleischer@archlinux.org> wrote:
Hi,
I was recently contacted by a Polish researcher asking for a list of AUR account names. I did not expect this to be controversial but a couple of Trusted Users raised concerns on IRC, so I decided to move this to the public mailing list and discuss the whole topic in generality. I would like to head more opinions but please read the whole email and give it a second thought before simply bringing up the usual privacy arguments mentioned below.
My original questions was: Are we fine with sharing the list of AUR accounts names (only user names, no real names or email addresses) with a researcher that seems trustworthy and agrees to not share the data in any form other than the resulting anonymized statistics?
In this particular case, we are talking about Dorota Celinska [1] from the University of Warsaw, Faculty of Economic Sciences [2], see [3] for a list of her publications and [4] for a summary of her research project funded recently by the Polish National Science Centre. She needs the list of user names to perform a segmentation analysis, including users which were active on the older AUR releases both do not show any activity on AUR 4. She would also like to use the user names as identifiers to establish connections with other platforms, such as GitHub.
The next question is: Would it make sense to even make this data publicly available? Would it make sense to extend our RPC interface such that one can search for users names? GitHub, for example, already provides such an interface [5]. Let me quickly summarize some arguments for this idea which came up on IRC:
* User names are mostly identifiers. It is questionable whether they can/should be considered personal/private information. Maybe this can only be answered by a lawyer, though.
* The user names of all accounts with any kind of public activity, like uploading a package, filing a request, writing a comment, are public already.
* After logging into the aurweb interface, you can already check whether an account with a given user name exists because the account details page URIs have the form https://aur.archlinux.org/account/$username. This means that for any platform providing a list of user names (such as GitHub), you can "establish connections" with the AUR already.
Now the arguments against:
* Principle of data economy: We should not share any kind of information we do not need to share.
* Sharing user names lowers the threshold for sharing other information which is considered more confidential.
* Users can (and should) already use crawlers to fetch the user names. For example, the user names of all package maintainers and comment authors appear on the package details pages. The names of all users filing package requests appear in the mailing list archives etc.
* We do not have ToS so we better not share anything.
I, personally, find the second last argument a very weak one. Telling users to build crawlers scraping an brute-forcing our HTML pages makes life difficult for both them and us. What do you think?
On the other side of the coin, the last argument is a very good one and it brings me to my last point. Independently of the outcome of this discussion, I think we should add some ToS that users need to agree upon when registering. It should contain information on liability and on privacy. Is anybody willing to write a draft? Do we need the support of a lawyer here?
Thank you for your time and have a nice Sunday!
Regards, Lukas
Hello, As stated in IRC I'm against handing out user data (including nick names) to a 3rd party. Personally due to mentioned privacy stuff, but also the legal problems we may run into as we don't have a ToS. So under these circumstances I have a bad feeling being making these information available to someone else even if the person leaves a proper impression. Regarding the crawler I put in as a work around for the researcher party to collect the already available public names I don't understand why you extend this to brute forcing the account pages or going through archives of the mailing list. The suggestion I made was that it's simple to collect a list of all packages stored in AUR and then get the common fields of original submitter, maintainers and people who made comments for each package. Either by using a plain GET to request the HTML page for the package or using the interfaces available (I'm not familiar with those and what they provide). This does not involve any brute force attacks as the package names are available. Also for the scripts doing this no login necessary. The names gathered this way are already public and can be found with every large search engine. Sure this will create some load, but I assume any reasonable person would put a short sleep in between the requests. I agree that we should get a ToS for the AUR. Best Regards, Thorsten
On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 at 18:40:36, Thorsten Töpper wrote:
As stated in IRC I'm against handing out user data (including nick names) to a 3rd party. Personally due to mentioned privacy stuff, but also the legal problems we may run into as we don't have a ToS. So under these circumstances I have a bad feeling being making these information available to someone else even if the person leaves a proper impression.
While I agree that not having ToS might be a problem, I don't see why publicly advertising the user name list is an issue, compared to the situation we are currently in. We already make the user name public in so many contexts (pretty much every action that requires an account). Given that, it should be pretty clear that you implicitly agree to share your user name by registering (IANAL, so this might be wrong from a legal standpoint, though).
Regarding the crawler I put in as a work around for the researcher party to collect the already available public names I don't understand why you extend this to brute forcing the account pages or going through archives of the mailing list. The suggestion I made was that it's simple to collect a list of all packages stored in AUR and then get the common fields of original submitter, maintainers and people who made comments for each package. Either by using a plain GET to request the HTML page for the package or using the interfaces available (I'm not familiar with those and what they provide). This does not involve any brute force attacks as the package names are available. Also for the scripts doing this no login necessary.
I only mentioned various possibilities to already obtain a list of user names. Theoretically, the complete list is already available online but brute-forcing all account details sites is not feasible in practice. Parsing the package details pages is a first naive approach that works in practice. Parsing even more sites is the next logical step. Scanning account details pages for a list of known user names gives you even more information and is still practically feasible.
The names gathered this way are already public and can be found with every large search engine. Sure this will create some load, but I assume any reasonable person would put a short sleep in between the requests.
All true, but if we are fine with sharing this information I still do not see why we should not provide a sane interface.
I agree that we should get a ToS for the AUR.
Volunteers? :) Regards, Lukas
On Mar 5, 2017 8:35 AM, "Lukas Fleischer" <lfleischer@archlinux.org> wrote: Hi, I was recently contacted by a Polish researcher asking for a list of AUR account names. I did not expect this to be controversial but a couple of Trusted Users raised concerns on IRC, so I decided to move this to the public mailing list and discuss the whole topic in generality. I would like to head more opinions but please read the whole email and give it a second thought before simply bringing up the usual privacy arguments mentioned below. My original questions was: Are we fine with sharing the list of AUR accounts names (only user names, no real names or email addresses) with a researcher that seems trustworthy and agrees to not share the data in any form other than the resulting anonymized statistics? As long as we publish a list of all available packages, it doesn't matter if we comply with this request -- the information is already obtainable through RPC requests. In this particular case, we are talking about Dorota Celinska [1] from the University of Warsaw, Faculty of Economic Sciences [2], see [3] for a list of her publications and [4] for a summary of her research project funded recently by the Polish National Science Centre. She needs the list of user names to perform a segmentation analysis, including users which were active on the older AUR releases both do not show any activity on AUR 4. She would also like to use the user names as identifiers to establish connections with other platforms, such as GitHub. The next question is: Would it make sense to even make this data publicly available? Would it make sense to extend our RPC interface such that one can search for users names? GitHub, for example, already provides such an interface [5]. Let me quickly summarize some arguments for this idea which came up on IRC: * User names are mostly identifiers. It is questionable whether they can/should be considered personal/private information. Maybe this can only be answered by a lawyer, though. * The user names of all accounts with any kind of public activity, like uploading a package, filing a request, writing a comment, are public already. * After logging into the aurweb interface, you can already check whether an account with a given user name exists because the account details page URIs have the form https://aur.archlinux.org/account/$username. This means that for any platform providing a list of user names (such as GitHub), you can "establish connections" with the AUR already. Now the arguments against: * Principle of data economy: We should not share any kind of information we do not need to share. * Sharing user names lowers the threshold for sharing other information which is considered more confidential. * Users can (and should) already use crawlers to fetch the user names. For example, the user names of all package maintainers and comment authors appear on the package details pages. The names of all users filing package requests appear in the mailing list archives etc. * We do not have ToS so we better not share anything. I, personally, find the second last argument a very weak one. Telling users to build crawlers scraping an brute-forcing our HTML pages makes life difficult for both them and us. What do you think? On the other side of the coin, the last argument is a very good one and it brings me to my last point. Independently of the outcome of this discussion, I think we should add some ToS that users need to agree upon when registering. It should contain information on liability and on privacy. Is anybody willing to write a draft? Do we need the support of a lawyer here? Thank you for your time and have a nice Sunday! Regards, Lukas [1] http://coin.wne.uw.edu.pl/dcelinska/en/ [2] https://www.wne.uw.edu.pl/index.php/en/ [3] http://coin.wne.uw.edu.pl/dcelinska/en/pages/publications.html [4] https://ncn.gov.pl/sites/default/files/listy-rankingowe/2016-03-15/ streszczenia/337724-en.pdf [5] https://developer.github.com/v3/users/
On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 at 19:11:33, Dave Reisner wrote:
As long as we publish a list of all available packages, it doesn't matter if we comply with this request -- the information is already obtainable through RPC requests.
Could you elaborate, please? I do not see how this information is already obtainable. In particular, there is no easy way to obtain user names of "inactive" accounts (no comments, no package submissions, no requests, ...) -- is there?
On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Lukas Fleischer <lfleischer@archlinux.org> wrote:
On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 at 19:11:33, Dave Reisner wrote:
As long as we publish a list of all available packages, it doesn't matter if we comply with this request -- the information is already obtainable through RPC requests.
Could you elaborate, please? I do not see how this information is already obtainable. In particular, there is no easy way to obtain user names of "inactive" accounts (no comments, no package submissions, no requests, ...) -- is there?
Ah, I guess you're right -- there isn't.
Dave, You appeared to have inserted some text in the middle of Lukas' message with no indication whatsoever which paragraphs are yours and which are his. I'm sure GMail can tell them apart but for those of us who use run-of-the-mill emails could you find a way to fix this behavior? I'm attaching your mail as it got into my inbox. Cheers. -- Gaetan
[2017-03-05 14:35:05 +0100] Lukas Fleischer:
My original questions was: Are we fine with sharing the list of AUR accounts names (only user names, no real names or email addresses) with a researcher that seems trustworthy and agrees to not share the data in any form other than the resulting anonymized statistics?
I am strongly against this because it seems to me it would put us in a very weak legal position (though as always IANAL). The simple argument is that when users sign up for an AUR account they have no expectation that any data they submit (including their username) might be shared with a third-party. Now as you've noticed with other Internet services, sharing data with third-parties is kind of a big deal. To the point that many services can only be used after you've agreed to some kind of EULA where you consent to your data being shared. For us it's even worse, there's no EULA, just what users might expect us to do with their data. So please let's err on the safe side here. Surely there's tons of other username lists on the Internet this researcher can use... Cheers. -- Gaetan
On Sun, 05 Mar 2017 at 22:54:07, Gaetan Bisson wrote:
[2017-03-05 14:35:05 +0100] Lukas Fleischer:
My original questions was: Are we fine with sharing the list of AUR accounts names (only user names, no real names or email addresses) with a researcher that seems trustworthy and agrees to not share the data in any form other than the resulting anonymized statistics?
I am strongly against this because it seems to me it would put us in a very weak legal position (though as always IANAL).
The simple argument is that when users sign up for an AUR account they have no expectation that any data they submit (including their username) might be shared with a third-party.
Now as you've noticed with other Internet services, sharing data with third-parties is kind of a big deal. To the point that many services can only be used after you've agreed to some kind of EULA where you consent to your data being shared. For us it's even worse, there's no EULA, just what users might expect us to do with their data. So please let's err on the safe side here. [...]
I gave this a second thought and I still do not see how publishing the list of user names would lead to a very weak legal position, especially if you consider our legal position relative to the current situation. If we *really* think that we need to keep user names secret, I think we should take down the whole AUR website because we already share this information everywhere without explicitly telling our users we do so. Or at least censor the user names on every single page they appear on which would be a lot of work. Maybe we should do what Phil suggested in the email I just forwarded to the list (forgot to fix the In-Reply-To and References headers, sorry). Write ToS as soon as possible, make users accept them when logging in and send notifications to all users. Then delete all remaining accounts after a grace period. A nice side benefit of this is that we would make sure all passwords are migrated from MD5 to bcrypt, see [1, 2]. Opinions? Regards, Lukas [1] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/aur-dev/2017-February/004291.html [2] https://git.archlinux.org/aurweb.git/commit/?id=29a4870
[2017-03-07 09:05:28 +0100] Lukas Fleischer:
If we *really* think that we need to keep user names secret, I think we should take down the whole AUR website because we already share this information everywhere without explicitly telling our users we do so. Or at least censor the user names on every single page they appear on which would be a lot of work.
Intent matters a lot in court. It's not just pure logic arguments. There's a big difference between showing the usernames of package maintainers, or comment posters, as users would expect, and plainly giving the whole list out to a third party --- as they wouldn't expect. Cheers. -- Gaetan
On Tue, 07 Mar 2017 at 09:23:47, Gaetan Bisson wrote:
[2017-03-07 09:05:28 +0100] Lukas Fleischer:
If we *really* think that we need to keep user names secret, I think we should take down the whole AUR website because we already share this information everywhere without explicitly telling our users we do so. Or at least censor the user names on every single page they appear on which would be a lot of work.
Intent matters a lot in court. It's not just pure logic arguments. There's a big difference between showing the usernames of package maintainers, or comment posters, as users would expect, and plainly giving the whole list out to a third party --- as they wouldn't expect.
As I already mentioned in my initial email (below the part you quoted in your first reply), my idea was to make the list of user names obtainable via the RPC interface, similar to the GitHub API for user names [1]. If you skipped that part, please read the complete email. The basic idea is that user names are public anyway, so it makes sense to provide a sane interface for retrieving them. Regards, Lukas [1] https://developer.github.com/v3/users/
On 2017-03-05 14:35, Lukas Fleischer wrote:
<snip>
As I already said on IRC, I do not consider username as private data. If someone is afraid of connecting his activity on AUR with GitHub (or any other service), they shouldn't use the same username in the first place. Especially given how easily the data can be scrapped from AUR itself and git repositories. +1 for sharing it, either by RPC or giving the list to Dorota. Bartłomiej
On 05/03/17 23:35, Lukas Fleischer wrote:
Hi,
I was recently contacted by a Polish researcher asking for a list of AUR account names.
Please share this data. It looks like this person is doing genuine research into networks within open-source software communities. Providing easy access to already public data should be encouraged in all fields of research. Allan
On Sun, 2017-03-05 at 14:35 +0100, Lukas Fleischer wrote:
***
To me, - It make sense to have AUR RPC searchable for username;- Information are already public, so the question is more about a proper api interface vs crawling.- Solution should be available for every registered users, not only for a researcher. so, go on. Regards, -- Sébastien "Seblu" Luttringer https://seblu.net | Twitter: @seblu42 GPG: 0x2072D77A
participants (7)
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Allan McRae
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Bartłomiej Piotrowski
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Dave Reisner
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Gaetan Bisson
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Lukas Fleischer
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Sébastien Luttringer
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Thorsten Töpper