[arch-dev-public] Removing dependency on fontconfig/xorg-mkfontscale of font packages

Frederik Schwan

29 Mar 2020 29 Mar '20

11:26 p.m.

We received a Feature Request today to remove fontconfig and xorg-mkfontscale dependencies from our font packages according to our own font packaging guidelines [0]. I discussed with Eli on #archlinux-bugs and we think it's a no-brainer but before creating a TODO we'd like to ask for your opinions first. Thank you [0] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012

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Chih-Hsuan Yen

30 Mar 30 Mar

10:35 a.m.

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:26:11AM +0200, Frederik Schwan via arch-dev-public wrote:

...

We received a Feature Request today to remove fontconfig and xorg-mkfontscale dependencies from our font packages according to our own font packaging guidelines [0].

I discussed with Eli on #archlinux-bugs and we think it's a no-brainer but before creating a TODO we'd like to ask for your opinions first.

Thank you

[0] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012

Hi, Just as a reference - in another similar feature request [1], Doug Newgard mentioned that not everyone agrees on removing fontconfig and/or xorg-mkfontscale. I believe the following two mails in the mentioned arch-dev-public thread are most relevant: [2][3]. Having said that, I agrees on removing fontconfig & xorg-mkfontscale. Best, Chih-Hsuan Yen [1] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/59164 [2] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027946.html [3] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027948.html

Eli Schwartz

31 Mar 31 Mar

4:36 p.m.

On 3/30/20 6:35 AM, Chih-Hsuan Yen via arch-dev-public wrote:

...

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:26:11AM +0200, Frederik Schwan via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
We received a Feature Request today to remove fontconfig and xorg-mkfontscale dependencies from our font packages according to our own font packaging guidelines [0].

I discussed with Eli on #archlinux-bugs and we think it's a no-brainer but before creating a TODO we'd like to ask for your opinions first.

Thank you

[0] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012

Just as a reference - in another similar feature request [1], Doug Newgard mentioned that not everyone agrees on removing fontconfig and/or xorg-mkfontscale. I believe the following two mails in the mentioned arch-dev-public thread are most relevant: [2][3].

Having said that, I agrees on removing fontconfig & xorg-mkfontscale.

Best,

Chih-Hsuan Yen

[1] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/59164 [2] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027946.html [3] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027948.html

heftig, City-busz, could you elaborate on just what this means? All I see there is mention that "it ensures the hooks are available", but that simply says "it needs to be installed for the sake of being installed". Is there an underlying reason here? Note that regardless of whether a font package depends on fontconfig, and regardless of whether you have any fonts installed, the fontconfig post_install and post_upgrade scripts run fc-cache --really-force during install time and on every single pkgver or pkgrel update, and then if fonts are installed it runs *again* at the end of the transaction. It's impossible to have fontconfig installed and *not* have the fontconfig cache. xorg-mkfontscale does the same thing to run /usr/share/libalpm/scripts/xorg-mkfontscale but in post_install only. -- Eli Schwartz Bug Wrangler and Trusted User

Eli Schwartz

25 Jun 25 Jun

9:53 p.m.

On 3/31/20 12:36 PM, Eli Schwartz wrote:

...

On 3/30/20 6:35 AM, Chih-Hsuan Yen via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:26:11AM +0200, Frederik Schwan via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
We received a Feature Request today to remove fontconfig and xorg-mkfontscale dependencies from our font packages according to our own font packaging guidelines [0].

I discussed with Eli on #archlinux-bugs and we think it's a no-brainer but before creating a TODO we'd like to ask for your opinions first.

Thank you

[0] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012

Just as a reference - in another similar feature request [1], Doug Newgard mentioned that not everyone agrees on removing fontconfig and/or xorg-mkfontscale. I believe the following two mails in the mentioned arch-dev-public thread are most relevant: [2][3].

Having said that, I agrees on removing fontconfig & xorg-mkfontscale.

Best,

Chih-Hsuan Yen

[1] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/59164 [2] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027946.html [3] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027948.html

heftig, City-busz, could you elaborate on just what this means? All I see there is mention that "it ensures the hooks are available", but that simply says "it needs to be installed for the sake of being installed". Is there an underlying reason here?

Note that regardless of whether a font package depends on fontconfig, and regardless of whether you have any fonts installed, the fontconfig post_install and post_upgrade scripts run fc-cache --really-force during install time and on every single pkgver or pkgrel update, and then if fonts are installed it runs *again* at the end of the transaction. It's impossible to have fontconfig installed and *not* have the fontconfig cache.

xorg-mkfontscale does the same thing to run /usr/share/libalpm/scripts/xorg-mkfontscale but in post_install only.

Since there were no objections after several months and the bug reporter is asking for a status update, I will assume the objection from 2016 no longer applies. I'll create a TODO for this later tonight. -- Eli Schwartz Bug Wrangler and Trusted User

Chih-Hsuan Yen

26 Jun 26 Jun

3:29 a.m.

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 05:53:28PM -0400, Eli Schwartz via arch-dev-public wrote:

...

On 3/31/20 12:36 PM, Eli Schwartz wrote:

...
On 3/30/20 6:35 AM, Chih-Hsuan Yen via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:26:11AM +0200, Frederik Schwan via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
We received a Feature Request today to remove fontconfig and xorg-mkfontscale dependencies from our font packages according to our own font packaging guidelines [0].

I discussed with Eli on #archlinux-bugs and we think it's a no-brainer but before creating a TODO we'd like to ask for your opinions first.

Thank you

[0] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012

Just as a reference - in another similar feature request [1], Doug Newgard mentioned that not everyone agrees on removing fontconfig and/or xorg-mkfontscale. I believe the following two mails in the mentioned arch-dev-public thread are most relevant: [2][3].

Having said that, I agrees on removing fontconfig & xorg-mkfontscale.

Best,

Chih-Hsuan Yen

[1] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/59164 [2] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027946.html [3] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027948.html

heftig, City-busz, could you elaborate on just what this means? All I see there is mention that "it ensures the hooks are available", but that simply says "it needs to be installed for the sake of being installed". Is there an underlying reason here?

Note that regardless of whether a font package depends on fontconfig, and regardless of whether you have any fonts installed, the fontconfig post_install and post_upgrade scripts run fc-cache --really-force during install time and on every single pkgver or pkgrel update, and then if fonts are installed it runs *again* at the end of the transaction. It's impossible to have fontconfig installed and *not* have the fontconfig cache.

xorg-mkfontscale does the same thing to run /usr/share/libalpm/scripts/xorg-mkfontscale but in post_install only.

Since there were no objections after several months and the bug reporter is asking for a status update, I will assume the objection from 2016 no longer applies. I'll create a TODO for this later tonight.

-- Eli Schwartz Bug Wrangler and Trusted User

Hi Eli, I saw the new TODO has been created. Thanks a lot for that! Just one question: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012 also mentions xorg-font-utils. Should that be removed from dependencies as well? Best, Chih-Hsuan Yen

Eli Schwartz

3:33 a.m.

On 6/25/20 11:29 PM, Chih-Hsuan Yen via arch-dev-public wrote:

...

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 05:53:28PM -0400, Eli Schwartz via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
On 3/31/20 12:36 PM, Eli Schwartz wrote:

...
On 3/30/20 6:35 AM, Chih-Hsuan Yen via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:26:11AM +0200, Frederik Schwan via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
We received a Feature Request today to remove fontconfig and xorg-mkfontscale dependencies from our font packages according to our own font packaging guidelines [0].

I discussed with Eli on #archlinux-bugs and we think it's a no-brainer but before creating a TODO we'd like to ask for your opinions first.

Thank you

[0] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012

Just as a reference - in another similar feature request [1], Doug Newgard mentioned that not everyone agrees on removing fontconfig and/or xorg-mkfontscale. I believe the following two mails in the mentioned arch-dev-public thread are most relevant: [2][3].

Having said that, I agrees on removing fontconfig & xorg-mkfontscale.

Best,

Chih-Hsuan Yen

[1] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/59164 [2] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027946.html [3] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027948.html

heftig, City-busz, could you elaborate on just what this means? All I see there is mention that "it ensures the hooks are available", but that simply says "it needs to be installed for the sake of being installed". Is there an underlying reason here?

Note that regardless of whether a font package depends on fontconfig, and regardless of whether you have any fonts installed, the fontconfig post_install and post_upgrade scripts run fc-cache --really-force during install time and on every single pkgver or pkgrel update, and then if fonts are installed it runs *again* at the end of the transaction. It's impossible to have fontconfig installed and *not* have the fontconfig cache.

xorg-mkfontscale does the same thing to run /usr/share/libalpm/scripts/xorg-mkfontscale but in post_install only.

Since there were no objections after several months and the bug reporter is asking for a status update, I will assume the objection from 2016 no longer applies. I'll create a TODO for this later tonight.

-- Eli Schwartz Bug Wrangler and Trusted User

Hi Eli,

I saw the new TODO has been created. Thanks a lot for that! Just one question: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012 also mentions xorg-font-utils. Should that be removed from dependencies as well?

It is a "Transitional package depending on xorg font utilities", the package has no contents and simply depends=('xorg-bdftopcf' 'xorg-mkfontdir' 'xorg-mkfontscale' 'xorg-font-util') Not sure why it exists still TBH, but I'd venture to say it should be removed too, yes... e.g. why drag in a recursive dependency on xorg-bdftopcf in this day and age? -- Eli Schwartz Bug Wrangler and Trusted User

Chih-Hsuan Yen

6:03 a.m.

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:33:45PM -0400, Eli Schwartz via arch-dev-public wrote:

...

On 6/25/20 11:29 PM, Chih-Hsuan Yen via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 05:53:28PM -0400, Eli Schwartz via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
On 3/31/20 12:36 PM, Eli Schwartz wrote:

...
On 3/30/20 6:35 AM, Chih-Hsuan Yen via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:26:11AM +0200, Frederik Schwan via arch-dev-public wrote:

...
We received a Feature Request today to remove fontconfig and xorg-mkfontscale dependencies from our font packages according to our own font packaging guidelines [0].

I discussed with Eli on #archlinux-bugs and we think it's a no-brainer but before creating a TODO we'd like to ask for your opinions first.

Thank you

[0] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012

Just as a reference - in another similar feature request [1], Doug Newgard mentioned that not everyone agrees on removing fontconfig and/or xorg-mkfontscale. I believe the following two mails in the mentioned arch-dev-public thread are most relevant: [2][3].

Having said that, I agrees on removing fontconfig & xorg-mkfontscale.

Best,

Chih-Hsuan Yen

[1] https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/59164 [2] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027946.html [3] https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2016-April/027948.html

heftig, City-busz, could you elaborate on just what this means? All I see there is mention that "it ensures the hooks are available", but that simply says "it needs to be installed for the sake of being installed". Is there an underlying reason here?

Note that regardless of whether a font package depends on fontconfig, and regardless of whether you have any fonts installed, the fontconfig post_install and post_upgrade scripts run fc-cache --really-force during install time and on every single pkgver or pkgrel update, and then if fonts are installed it runs *again* at the end of the transaction. It's impossible to have fontconfig installed and *not* have the fontconfig cache.

xorg-mkfontscale does the same thing to run /usr/share/libalpm/scripts/xorg-mkfontscale but in post_install only.

Since there were no objections after several months and the bug reporter is asking for a status update, I will assume the objection from 2016 no longer applies. I'll create a TODO for this later tonight.

-- Eli Schwartz Bug Wrangler and Trusted User

Hi Eli,

I saw the new TODO has been created. Thanks a lot for that! Just one question: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/66012 also mentions xorg-font-utils. Should that be removed from dependencies as well?

It is a "Transitional package depending on xorg font utilities", the package has no contents and simply

depends=('xorg-bdftopcf' 'xorg-mkfontdir' 'xorg-mkfontscale' 'xorg-font-util')

Not sure why it exists still TBH, but I'd venture to say it should be removed too, yes...

e.g. why drag in a recursive dependency on xorg-bdftopcf in this day and age?

-- Eli Schwartz Bug Wrangler and Trusted User

Got it! Also thanks for updating the TODO description.

Andreas Radke

6:39 a.m.

Am Thu, 25 Jun 2020 23:33:45 -0400 schrieb Eli Schwartz via arch-dev-public :

...

On 6/25/20 11:29 PM, Chih-Hsuan Yen via arch-dev-public wrote: [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] [...]

It is a "Transitional package depending on xorg font utilities", the package has no contents and simply

depends=('xorg-bdftopcf' 'xorg-mkfontdir' 'xorg-mkfontscale' 'xorg-font-util')

Not sure why it exists still TBH, but I'd venture to say it should be removed too, yes...

e.g. why drag in a recursive dependency on xorg-bdftopcf in this day and age?

checking for mkfontdir... no configure: error: mkfontdir is required to build font-arabic-misc. ==> ERROR: A failure occurred in build(). checking for bdftopcf... no configure: error: bdftopcf is required to build font-arabic-misc. ==> ERROR: A failure occurred in build(). checking for ucs2any... no configure: error: ucs2any is required to build font-misc-misc. ==> ERROR: A failure occurred in build(). We have to choose if we want simple makedepends=('xorg-font-utils') or makedepends=('xorg-mkfontscale' 'xorg-bdftopcf' 'xorg-font-util') Sure we can drop the meta package "xorg-font-utils" entirely but it simply covers all possible makedependencies to simplify packagers life. We should add another ToDo list to either fully remove the metapackage if we agree to do so or at least move it to a makedependency. Check all those packages that still depend on it at runtime probably all wrong: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/any/xorg-font-utils/ -Andy

Jan de Groot

7:38 a.m.

Andreas Radke via arch-dev-public schreef op 2020-06-26 08:39:

...

We have to choose if we want simple

makedepends=('xorg-font-utils') or makedepends=('xorg-mkfontscale' 'xorg-bdftopcf' 'xorg-font-util')

Sure we can drop the meta package "xorg-font-utils" entirely but it simply covers all possible makedependencies to simplify packagers life. We should add another ToDo list to either fully remove the metapackage if we agree to do so or at least move it to a makedependency. Check all those packages that still depend on it at runtime probably all wrong: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/any/xorg-font-utils/

The description says "transitional". The reason it exists is because it used to contain all utils it depends on. Since we have way too many font packages in the repository that depend on it, we decided to make a transitional package, which would get deleted some day when no fonts depend on it anymore. Please kill it together with this change.

Andreas Radke

7:51 a.m.

Am Fri, 26 Jun 2020 09:38:28 +0200 schrieb Jan de Groot :

...

Andreas Radke via arch-dev-public schreef op 2020-06-26 08:39: [...]

The description says "transitional". The reason it exists is because it used to contain all utils it depends on. Since we have way too many font packages in the repository that depend on it, we decided to make a transitional package, which would get deleted some day when no fonts depend on it anymore.

Please kill it together with this change.

Done: https://www.archlinux.org/todo/removal-of-xorg-font-utils-transitional-packa... -Andy

Felix Yan

8:56 a.m.

I noticed that xorg-fonts-alias and xorg-fonts-encodings were still kept: https://git.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/commit/trunk?h=packages/ttf-indic-otf&id=104e24f18c7138d6a0a260a86465375682d4edfa If they should be removed as well, perhaps this could also be mentioned in the TODO? -- Regards, Felix Yan

Andreas Radke

10:15 a.m.

Am Fri, 26 Jun 2020 16:56:03 +0800 schrieb Felix Yan via arch-dev-public :

...

I noticed that xorg-fonts-alias and xorg-fonts-encodings were still kept:

https://git.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/commit/trunk?h=packages/ttf-indic-otf&id=104e24f18c7138d6a0a260a86465375682d4edfa

If they should be removed as well, perhaps this could also be mentioned in the TODO?

xorg-fonts-alias should only be required by the related xorg-fonts-{100dpi,75dpi,cyrillic,misc} packages. xorg-fonts-alias /usr/share/fonts/100dpi/fonts.alias xorg-fonts-alias /usr/share/fonts/75dpi/fonts.alias xorg-fonts-alias /usr/share/fonts/cyrillic/fonts.alias xorg-fonts-alias /usr/share/fonts/misc/fonts.alias Not sure about xorg-fonts-encodings. Debian packages a common "xfonts-utils" package similar to our old transitional "xorg-fonts-utils" package and make it depend on it. I guess these encodings may be used more widely. Just checking: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/font/encodings "Font encoding tables for libfontenc" - maybe our libfontenc should depend on it and nothing else. That way "xorg-mkfontscale" would pull it in at build time. -Andy

Andreas Radke

10:27 a.m.

Am Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:15:54 +0200 schrieb Andreas Radke via arch-dev-public :

...

Am Fri, 26 Jun 2020 16:56:03 +0800 schrieb Felix Yan via arch-dev-public :

[...]

xorg-fonts-alias should only be required by the related xorg-fonts-{100dpi,75dpi,cyrillic,misc} packages.

xorg-fonts-alias /usr/share/fonts/100dpi/fonts.alias xorg-fonts-alias /usr/share/fonts/75dpi/fonts.alias xorg-fonts-alias /usr/share/fonts/cyrillic/fonts.alias xorg-fonts-alias /usr/share/fonts/misc/fonts.alias

We could also split the alias package or even drop it and add its source to the related fonts packages each building and including their own alias file. -Andy

Eli Schwartz

11:41 a.m.

On 6/26/20 2:39 AM, Andreas Radke via arch-dev-public wrote:

...

We have to choose if we want simple

makedepends=('xorg-font-utils') or makedepends=('xorg-mkfontscale' 'xorg-bdftopcf' 'xorg-font-util')

Sure we can drop the meta package "xorg-font-utils" entirely but it simply covers all possible makedependencies to simplify packagers life. We should add another ToDo list to either fully remove the metapackage if we agree to do so or at least move it to a makedependency. Check all those packages that still depend on it at runtime probably all wrong: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/any/xorg-font-utils/

I'm not really afraid of having 3 makedepends :) so the second TODO seems reasonable. Thanks. -- Eli Schwartz Bug Wrangler and Trusted User

Andreas Radke

29 Jun 29 Jun

2:53 p.m.

This ToDo list has been finished. I've removed xorg-font-utils from extra repo. Custom/AUR font packages should be fixed dropping their dependency on it to allow removing it from system. -Andy

Andreas Radke

3:05 p.m.

Am Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:27:00 +0200 schrieb Andreas Radke via arch-dev-public :

...

Am Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:15:54 +0200 schrieb Andreas Radke via arch-dev-public :

[...]

We could also split the alias package or even drop it and add its source to the related fonts packages each building and including their own alias file.

-Andy

I'm going to remove the unneeded dependency on xorg-fonts-alias package from various font packages where it doesn't belong. It only provides alias files for few Xorg fonts. I'm still thinking about dropping the xorg-fonts-alias package. I'd prefer to put its alias files into the corresponding xorg-fonts-{100dpi,75dpi,cyrillic,misc} packages to avoid confusion and drop it then. In a 2nd step I'll make libfontenc depend on xorg-fonts-encodings as stated in Xorg gitlab repo and will cleanup if something depends on the encodings package. Are there other font related tasks pending? -Andy

Andreas Radke

3:06 p.m.

Am Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:27:00 +0200 schrieb Andreas Radke via arch-dev-public :

...

Am Fri, 26 Jun 2020 12:15:54 +0200 schrieb Andreas Radke via arch-dev-public :

[...]

We could also split the alias package or even drop it and add its source to the related fonts packages each building and including their own alias file.

-Andy

Baptiste Jonglez

2 Jul 2 Jul

11 a.m.

Hi, On 29-06-20, Andreas Radke via arch-dev-public wrote:

...

I'm going to remove the unneeded dependency on xorg-fonts-alias package from various font packages where it doesn't belong.

FYI, I had old font packages on my system that (obviously) still have this dependency, causing upgrade to fail: :: xorg-fonts-alias-100dpi and xorg-fonts-alias are in conflict. Remove xorg-fonts-alias? [y/N] y error: failed to prepare transaction (could not satisfy dependencies) :: removing xorg-fonts-alias breaks dependency 'xorg-fonts-alias' required by fonts-tlwg :: removing xorg-fonts-alias breaks dependency 'xorg-fonts-alias' required by ttf-cheapskate :: removing xorg-fonts-alias breaks dependency 'xorg-fonts-alias' required by ttf-mph-2b-damase :: removing xorg-fonts-alias breaks dependency 'xorg-fonts-alias' required by ttf-ubraille This is only midly annoying because I should have cleaned those up long ago, but maybe put a notice on the website about this change? Baptiste

Andreas Radke

11:42 a.m.

Am Thu, 2 Jul 2020 13:00:27 +0200 schrieb Baptiste Jonglez :

...

This is only midly annoying because I should have cleaned those up long ago, but maybe put a notice on the website about this change?

Baptiste

Everything in our repos has been fixed to allow a smooth -Syu upgrade path. We don't post news items for every package we remove (here xorg-font-utils) or split/rename (-alias packages here). That's why the discussion happens here before. We are not responsible for AUR stuff or custom packages. And in this case these packages had broken dependencies long before this package renaming/split happened. A simple pacman -Qm check will also show what happened to our repos. We expect Arch users to follow this public mailing list here and fix and rebuild related custom packages. -Andy

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participants (7)

Andreas Radke
Baptiste Jonglez
Chih-Hsuan Yen
Eli Schwartz
Felix Yan
Frederik Schwan
Jan de Groot