Monday 06 August 2007, Phil Dillon-Thiselton wrote: | On 05/08/07, Tobias Powalowski wrote: | > Hi Arch community, | > 5th August, 23:00 CEST (Central European Summer Time) | > Arch Linux Don't-Panic 2007.08 ISO release | http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=35971 | | "I'd really like to hear a reasonable and serious answer." | | Good luck! why not using it? if the software you use is coded correctly, this should be absolutely no problem. the filename is translated and used as a string with boundaries that of course may be ' and ' but your script is known to mess with ' in a string you should substitute it. i remember once writing a file-manager in php that suddenly wasn't able to unlink a file that had a \' in filename. don't ask me how somebody managed to put \' in a filename, but i fixed it. no reason why ' should be a forbidden char. or is there? - D -- Damir Perisa Master Student Biozentrum, University of Basel Department Biochemistry / Focal Area Infection Biology Klingelbergstrasse 50-70 CH-4056 Basel, Switzerland

Monday 06 August 2007, Aaron Griffin wrote: | Because you can't ensure that all possible software that all | possible users are using is 100% sane. I mean, people might be | downloading the iso on _any_ os using _any_ software. doesn't this mean that you should stuck to ASCII for any filenames? as soon as i start using umlauts or accents (öäüéàèñ...) in names _some_ os or some software may mess with encoding tables or whatever. | I agree with that poster that the ' should never have been in the | file name. you mean even after several decades of IT? still humans should limit themselves to not using chars instead of fixing bad code when it comes up? it was not my idea to name this release as it is, but i would like to think it as a bug-triggerer... if something goes wrong handling this file, tell it the software devs whose software cannot handle it. if it breaks, it needed fixing anyway. no? - D -- Damir Perisa Master Student Biozentrum, University of Basel Department Biochemistry / Focal Area Infection Biology Klingelbergstrasse 50-70 CH-4056 Basel, Switzerland

On 8/6/07, eliott wrote:

I know I don't use ' characters in my filenames as a general rule. Just to save myself the effort of having to escape the names manually.

I start all my files with "--", especially the ones that need root permissions to delete. Man "--recurse" sure was hard to delete.

On 8/6/07, Damir Perisa wrote:

if it breaks, it needed fixing anyway. no?

You're 100% correct. I'll make a deal with you. Please test and patch all software that potentially balks on this, and I will concede that you were correct. But seriously, even bash completion may fail on that... I remember a few filename chars making completion spit out a few hundred errors.

On 8/6/07, Damir Perisa wrote:

Monday 06 August 2007, Aaron Griffin wrote: | On 8/6/07, Damir Perisa wrote: | > if it breaks, it needed fixing anyway. no? | | You're 100% correct. I'll make a deal with you. Please test and | patch all software that potentially balks on this, and I will | concede that you were correct.

i just started a poll that everybody emails me of problems found regarding apostrophe quote char inside a filename. i will collect them and post bugs personally.

| But seriously, even bash completion may fail on that... I remember | a few filename chars making completion spit out a few hundred | errors.

~/tmp|508> echo "bla bla bla" > "test's test" ~/tmp|509> more t<tab> ~/tmp|509> more test\'s\ test bla bla bla

seems to work fine

Ok, you win. Man, this is such a silly discussion. I wish legitimate Arch stuff got this much effort, but that's what we refer to as a "pipe dream".

Just fyi. This apostrophe made it a pain to download the torrent files. wget "http://linuxtracker.org/download.php?id=4433&name=Archlinux-x86_64-2007.08-Don%27t-Panic.current.iso.torrent" -O Archlinux-x86_64-2007.08-Don't-Panic.current.iso.torrent Yeah. That doesn't work. You have to \' escape the apostrophe manually (no tab completion on user entered names).. Which meant I couldn't just copy/paste with my mouse. (it made me sad) As a result, the torrent files don't have an apostrophe. ps. I think we should name the next release iso "--help !zomg.iso"

Tuesday 07 August 2007, eliott wrote: | Just fyi. | This apostrophe made it a pain to download the torrent files. | | wget | "http://linuxtracker.org/download.php?id=4433&name=Archlinux-x86_6 |4-2007.08-Don%27t-Panic.current.iso.torrent" -O | Archlinux-x86_64-2007.08-Don't-Panic.current.iso.torrent why did you specify this name without quotes? wget "http://linuxtracker.org/download.php?id=4433&name=Archlinux-x86_64-2007.08-Don%27t-Panic.current.iso.torrent" -O "Archlinux-x86_64-2007.08-Don't-Panic.current.iso.torrent" works fine for me - D -- Damir Perisa Master Student Biozentrum, University of Basel Department Biochemistry / Focal Area Infection Biology Klingelbergstrasse 50-70 CH-4056 Basel, Switzerland

Wednesday 08 August 2007, Jason Chu wrote: | > i just started a poll that everybody emails me of problems found | > regarding apostrophe quote char inside a filename. i will | > collect them and post bugs personally. | | Graveman doesn't work with the apostraphe. Can you patch that | please? in what way? i just pacman-S'ed graveman and i can add files with apostrophe quotes in filename to a data-cd. i also can load an ISO file with an apostrophe in filename for buring (i didn't test the actual buring since i do not need a cd right now) can you specify more? thx, damir -- Damir Perisa Master Student Biozentrum, University of Basel Department Biochemistry / Focal Area Infection Biology Klingelbergstrasse 50-70 CH-4056 Basel, Switzerland

On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:34:27PM +0200, Damir Perisa wrote:

Wednesday 08 August 2007, Jason Chu wrote: | > i just started a poll that everybody emails me of problems found | > regarding apostrophe quote char inside a filename. i will | > collect them and post bugs personally. | | Graveman doesn't work with the apostraphe. Can you patch that | please?

probably related to this one:

https://savannah.nongnu.org/bugs/?18678

- D

Yup, that's exactly it. It has to do with the command line programs that it executes to do the burning. It's a good thing that we have someone who's dedicated to fixing all the shell escaping problems in all the apps that we run! Otherwise we might have to rename our iso... Jason

It's not dead as far as i know, they're just doing a major rewrite. At least, that is the impression i got from the code... On 08/08/2007, Damir Perisa wrote:

Wednesday 08 August 2007, Jason Chu wrote: | On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:34:27PM +0200, Damir Perisa wrote: | > Wednesday 08 August 2007, Jason Chu wrote: | > | > i just started a poll that everybody emails me of problems | > | > found regarding apostrophe quote char inside a filename. i | > | > will collect them and post bugs personally. | > | | > | Graveman doesn't work with the apostraphe. Can you patch | > | that please? | > | > probably related to this one: | > | > https://savannah.nongnu.org/bugs/?18678 | Yup, that's exactly it. It has to do with the command line | programs that it executes to do the burning. | | It's a good thing that we have someone who's dedicated to fixing | all the shell escaping problems in all the apps that we run! | Otherwise we might have to rename our iso...

i just wrote in the bug what is the state on things... but checking in teh changelogs and cvs, i got a nasty surprise: the project is kind of dead...

http://graveman.tuxfamily.org/changelog.php

most of the cvs entries are 2 years old.

i'll just write the authors to check if they are alive ;)

greetings damir (the one crazy guy dedicated to such silly things like human friendly computer usage)

-- Damir Perisa Master Student Biozentrum, University of Basel Department Biochemistry / Focal Area Infection Biology Klingelbergstrasse 50-70 CH-4056 Basel, Switzerland

Wednesday 08 August 2007, Phil Dillon-Thiselton wrote: | It's not dead as far as i know, they're just doing a major | rewrite. At least, that is the impression i got from the code... ah ok, that explains it. where is the new code stored? any pre-releases yet? i have to admit that i never used graveman before... just now with this investigation and i found it actually worse than k3b. it for example needs ages to scan for drives. - D -- Damir Perisa Master Student Biozentrum, University of Basel Department Biochemistry / Focal Area Infection Biology Klingelbergstrasse 50-70 CH-4056 Basel, Switzerland

On 8/8/07, eliott wrote:

ok. What the hell?

This is ridiculous. I think it is great that damir is off to fix all the software that deals with escape characters poorly, but in the mean time, I feel a need to find a resolution that isn't np-hard.

It must be my development/engineering background. Silly me being all practical.

If nobody has any objections, I will change the iso filenames to *not* include the ' character. I will probably have to contact the guy who posted the torrents as well. It will be a hassle, but this is so ludicrous that I am willing to do some extra legwork to fix it.

Any objections?

/me cheers

On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 09:20:40PM +0200, Damir Perisa wrote:

Wednesday 08 August 2007, eliott wrote: | ok. What the hell? | | This is ridiculous. | I think it is great that damir is off to fix all the software that | deals with escape characters poorly, but in the mean time, I feel | a need to find a resolution that isn't np-hard. | | It must be my development/engineering background. | Silly me being all practical. | | If nobody has any objections, I will change the iso filenames to | *not* include the ' character. I will probably have to contact the | guy who posted the torrents as well. It will be a hassle, but this | is so ludicrous that I am willing to do some extra legwork to fix | it. | | Any objections?

but seriously: where else are the problems? besides graveman that is in a major rewrite atm? are we (speaking broadly for all software projects) not able to handle any filename chars in 2007?

obviously graveman is broken. A typical example of not escaping special chars, when invoking shell commands. Maybe this is also a security related bug (if graveman can be invoked as handler for iso files). I prefer not changing the original name (i think there are referring links by now). Jürgen

Wednesday 08 August 2007, Aaron Griffin wrote: | I find it rather funny that one can say this is "a typical example | of not escaping special chars", implying that it happens SO OFTEN | that it can be called "typical", yet we are against fixing this. we are not against fixing it. but fixing it means fixing the apps not the file. i'm from a country that uses quite often öäüéàè in its language and naming accordingly. i remember the times where windows (2.0 or so) had big trouble if you try to type in your native langauge something in a file and then move it to another computer on a floppy and see questionmarks and realise that it is a computer that cannot handle this codepage and therefore cannot open your file. nowadays people would laugh on this situation... nobody (end-users!) would consider not using öäü in their daily filenames. why not? because it simply works in all software. matter of fact: they (the mass of end users) are actually also using apostrophes and other curiosities in their filenames. and windows seems to work happily now with it after decades of developement. | I'm with cactus on this. This is silly. There is a problem. It has | been stated and shown to exist, yet I still see this "fix the rest | of the world, we're in the right" attitude that I just find... | well, daft. call me daft but somebody must start with the attitude to try to fix the world. sometimes you are right and the world is wrong ;-) i do not want to play devils advocate or be stubborn holding an argument. no i want to promote awareness on a problem that is happening "so often" that we instead of promoting its fixing promote a workaround. <philosophical text> linux and open source projects are often blamed for the lack of standards. i think we are not lacking standards but processes promoting fixes and enhancements that have little immediate effects but longterm cleanup and stabilizing function. once the devs accept that the apostrophe is a valid char in any string and not only a boundary char, it would be a start for cleaner code and less security fixes because of proper handling of things in the beginning. greetings, damir -- .·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´ ° ° ° ° ° ° ><((((º> ° ° ° ° ° <º)))>< <º)))><

great analogy with the plumbing! Wednesday 08 August 2007, Aaron Griffin wrote: | This is a great attitude, if the problem didn't exist _right now_. the problem is that there is always something existing already. you can try to fix the leaky plumbing only untill it breaks that it floods your room. of course because of one or two drops you do not start replacing all the tubings but especially problems that are "so often" problems should be solved once correctly. a few drops can get forgotten and suddenly you are having a wet habitat at home. i'm not for torturing users with intentionally made holes in the road for a forced mass testing of open source software. but minor things like our latest iso filename come handy in detecting holes and make people aware of them. they are not stoppers, because everybody can rename the file if some software is not working... but for now i have anyway no reports except graveman that we know the explaination now. actually we (broad term) should be quite proud on us (same broad term) for not having actually much more problems with this, keeping in mind that its mostly amateurs coding for open source projects for free *smile*. - D -- .·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´ ° ° ° ° ° ° ><((((º> ° ° ° ° ° <º)))>< <º)))><

Wednesday 08 August 2007, Jürgen Hötzel wrote: | Rename the file-name if your cd-record software can't handle the | original file-name. i support this suggestion - D -- .·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´ ° ° ° ° ° ° ><((((º> ° ° ° ° ° <º)))>< <º)))><

Wednesday 08 August 2007, Jason Chu wrote: | Or... we rename it, change all the links, and have symlinks with | the old filename that point to the new file... an excellent way to test if symlinks can handle apostrophes in its names under any circumstances *big grin* - D -- .·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´ ° ° ° ° ° ° ><((((º> ° ° ° ° ° <º)))>< <º)))><

Thursday 09 August 2007, Phil Dillon-Thiselton wrote: | All this over one ' | | Imagine what we could achieve if...oh, forget it... " for example? by the way, this char (" U+0022) is not the double apostrophe. ˮ this one is a double (U+02EE) but most fonts are missing it ;-) ... and imagine we are still in the common piece of the latin charset. not even left it to be more exotic... thinking about •‣⁂⁌⁍⁎⁑⁕⁖⁗⁘⁙⁚⁛⁜⁝⁞ now most probably you will see boxes or questionmarks of the line above, because your fonts installed will not provide this chars as well. well... lets just be less ☹ and more ☺ - D -- .·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´ ° ° ° ° ° ° ><((((º> ° ° ° ° ° <º)))>< <º)))><

On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 12:13:16PM -0700, eliott wrote:

ok. What the hell?

This is ridiculous. I think it is great that damir is off to fix all the software that deals with escape characters poorly, but in the mean time, I feel a need to find a resolution that isn't np-hard.

It must be my development/engineering background. Silly me being all practical.

If nobody has any objections, I will change the iso filenames to *not* include the ' character. I will probably have to contact the guy who posted the torrents as well. It will be a hassle, but this is so ludicrous that I am willing to do some extra legwork to fix it.

Any objections?

Hey spreaking of practicality. Can someone enlighten me as to when we started putting the release name in the filename anyway? I seem to remember we didn't used to. [1] Why don't we go back to this format? arch-2007.08-base.iso Err wait... maybe the extra .'s in the filename will confuse broken software that finds the file extension by finding the first dot in the filename instead of the last, maybe we should hold off. My bad. (laugh at the irony) And on the same token. Why have we stopped providing a release tree. We still talk about it on the about page [2], or shall I change the about page to reflect reality? And lastly something i noticed in the process of writing this, can we clean up our ftp structure? ffs there are isos and old shit everywhere. ... current is a symlink to 0.8, is that right? didn't think so. Bah I'll do it myself. -S [1] ftp://ftp.archlinux.org/0.7.2/iso/i686 [2] http://archlinux.org/about/