[arch-general] Quoting of E-mails
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 I've been seeing some very passionate pleeds in posts lately concerning top-posting of replies. I, for one, don't really mind seeing top-posted e-mails like that because I can see the reply quickly and if the thread is current in my mind, I don't have to re-read the old stuff over and over again. Nothing annoys me more than haveing to page through five generations of past messages in a single thread to get all the way to the bottom just to have a single line of text say something like "Thank you" or "I agree" or whatever. The only thing that makes bottom-posting, like this bareable to me at all is Mutt's 'S' command which takes the cursor down to the unquoted text for much quicker reading. If bottom-posting is so passionately desirable, then may I suggest people trim down the history of a thread to the most recent 1 or 2 generations back. Or maybe even better, just reply with no quoting and and briefly summarize the quoted context. Yeah, I realize quoting past context is more work. I just find that when people top-post, I can seem to get through the mud a lot faster. Of course interlacing replies with quoted text makes a lot of sense when you have multiple issues or questions being asked. Anyway, just my thoughts, not trying to war or any of that, just trying to see the proes and cons of e-mail styles. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREDAAYFAktL+5AACgkQWSjv55S0LfEQ4ACgxr5OkA9AMsezDU6ynhNmHj4Y 9mYAnjwZIcgCUHB0yo6Gu8ScCIj4awfD =90j9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Mon, 2010-01-11 at 21:33 -0700, Steve Holmes wrote: <snip>
If bottom-posting is so passionately desirable, then may I suggest people trim down the history of a thread to the most recent 1 or 2 generations back. Or maybe even better, just reply with no quoting and and briefly summarize the quoted context. Yeah, I realize quoting past context is more work. I just find that when people top-post, I can seem to get through the mud a lot faster. <snip>
Part of the point of bottom-posting is that you're supposed to trim the email, and I believe the same people who request bottom-posting be used also request proper usage of trimming. The other concern is that these MLs are typically archived, and its really tough to go through archives (for example, when googling about an issue) when there's top-posting involved. That's actually my primary reason for bottom-posting.
Le mardi 12 janvier 2010 à 12:48 +0800, Ng Oon-Ee a écrit :
[...] and its really tough to go through archives (for example, when googling about an issue) when there's top-posting involved. That's actually my primary reason for bottom-posting.
By the way, how do you search in the archives of the archlinux ML ? especially on several months ? I had to download the text files and grep them to find what I was looking for. Is there a better way ?
solsTiCe d'Hiver wrote:
Le mardi 12 janvier 2010 à 12:48 +0800, Ng Oon-Ee a écrit :
[...] and its really tough to go through archives (for example, when googling about an issue) when there's top-posting involved. That's actually my primary reason for bottom-posting.
By the way, how do you search in the archives of the archlinux ML ? especially on several months ?
I had to download the text files and grep them to find what I was looking for. Is there a better way ?
google e.g. to search for "foobar" in arch-dev-public: foobar site:http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/ (42 hits!)
On 01/12/2010 11:13 AM, Allan McRae wrote:
solsTiCe d'Hiver wrote:
Le mardi 12 janvier 2010 à 12:48 +0800, Ng Oon-Ee a écrit :
[...] and its really tough to go through archives (for example, when googling about an issue) when there's top-posting involved. That's actually my primary reason for bottom-posting.
By the way, how do you search in the archives of the archlinux ML ? especially on several months ?
I had to download the text files and grep them to find what I was looking for. Is there a better way ?
google e.g. to search for "foobar" in arch-dev-public:
foobar site:http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/
(42 hits!) There is also gmane.org: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.arch.devel http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.arch.general
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Simon Boulay <simon.boulay@gmail.com> wrote:
google e.g. to search for "foobar" in arch-dev-public:
foobar site:http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/
(42 hits!)
There is also gmane.org: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.arch.devel http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.arch.general
And many others as google can show you : http://www.mail-archive.com/arch-dev-public@archlinux.org/ http://archive.netbsd.se/?ml=arch-dev-public http://n2.nabble.com/arch-dev-public-f2376690.html
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 11:08:37AM +0100, solsTiCe d'Hiver wrote:
By the way, how do you search in the archives of the archlinux ML ? especially on several months ?
With Mutt's limit command. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes. Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla!!!
On Mon 11 Jan 2010 21:33 -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
re-read the old stuff over and over again. Nothing annoys me more than haveing to page through five generations of past messages in a single thread to get all the way to the bottom just to have a single line of text say something like "Thank you" or "I agree" or whatever.
Fortunately I find that sort of thing isn't too common on the mailing lists. Usually more interesting or useful commentary is added to the discussion.
The only thing that makes bottom-posting, like this bareable to me at all is Mutt's 'S' command which takes the cursor down to the unquoted text for much quicker reading.
I also find mutt's 'T' helps. It hides the quoted text.
If bottom-posting is so passionately desirable, then may I suggest people trim down the history of a thread to the most recent 1 or 2 generations back. Or maybe even better, just reply with no quoting and and briefly summarize the quoted context. Yeah, I realize quoting past context is more work. I just find that when people top-post, I can seem to get through the mud a lot faster.
Indeed trimming quotes is part of proper email ettiquette along with bottom posting. Sometimes I think people should pass a quiz before they're allowed to post to the mailing list. I think part of the problem is that some email clients like gmail webmail help persist the bad behaviour. They default with top posting replies and sending HTML emails. I have requested that they change the defaults, but haven't gotten any response. It isn't a big surprise though.
On 12-01-10 06:27, Loui Chang wrote: [top posting & trimming ]
I think part of the problem is that some email clients like gmail webmail help persist the bad behaviour. They default with top posting replies and sending HTML emails. I have requested that they change the defaults, but haven't gotten any response. It isn't a big surprise though.
Actually, it /is/ configurable in gmail. Although I'm using Thunderbird nowadays instead of the web interface. mvg, Guus
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Guus Snijders <gsnijders@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12-01-10 06:27, Loui Chang wrote:
[top posting & trimming ]
I think part of the problem is that some email clients like gmail webmail help persist the bad behaviour. They default with top posting replies and sending HTML emails. I have requested that they change the defaults, but haven't gotten any response. It isn't a big surprise though.
Actually, it /is/ configurable in gmail.
You can change the default to text, but bottom posting requires a greasemonkey script :S
2010/1/12 Aaron Griffin <aaronmgriffin@gmail.com>
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Guus Snijders <gsnijders@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12-01-10 06:27, Loui Chang wrote:
[top posting & trimming ]
I think part of the problem is that some email clients like gmail webmail help persist the bad behaviour. They default with top posting replies and sending HTML emails. I have requested that they change the defaults, but haven't gotten any response. It isn't a big surprise though.
Actually, it /is/ configurable in gmail.
You can change the default to text, but bottom posting requires a greasemonkey script :S
I'm intersted in how to set the default to text. I've search a bit, and found nothing :s -- Cordialement, Coues Ludovic 06 148 743 42 -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 4:17 PM, ludovic coues <couesl@gmail.com> wrote:
2010/1/12 Aaron Griffin <aaronmgriffin@gmail.com>
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Guus Snijders <gsnijders@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12-01-10 06:27, Loui Chang wrote:
[top posting & trimming ]
I think part of the problem is that some email clients like gmail webmail help persist the bad behaviour. They default with top posting replies and sending HTML emails. I have requested that they change the defaults, but haven't gotten any response. It isn't a big surprise though.
Actually, it /is/ configurable in gmail.
You can change the default to text, but bottom posting requires a greasemonkey script :S
I'm intersted in how to set the default to text. I've search a bit, and found nothing :s
Ah well, it's not exactly true. If you switch to text, the default will be text UNLESS you respond to an HTML email...
On 12-01-10 19:32, Aaron Griffin wrote:
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Guus Snijders<gsnijders@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12-01-10 06:27, Loui Chang wrote:
[top posting& trimming ]
I think part of the problem is that some email clients like gmail webmail help persist the bad behaviour. They default with top posting replies and sending HTML emails. I have requested that they change the defaults, but haven't gotten any response. It isn't a big surprise though.
Actually, it /is/ configurable in gmail.
You can change the default to text, but bottom posting requires a greasemonkey script :S
Yes, but the fact that you have to delete the first (empty lines) is also a good reminder to trim the quoted part. After all; you have to scroll the same amount of text down as the readers will ;). mvg, Guus
Obligatory: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? (sorry if you've seen this too many times already) Regards, Marti
On Tue 12 Jan 2010 19:28 +0100, Guus Snijders wrote:
On 12-01-10 06:27, Loui Chang wrote:
I think part of the problem is that some email clients like gmail webmail help persist the bad behaviour. They default with top posting replies and sending HTML emails. I have requested that they change the defaults, but haven't gotten any response. It isn't a big surprise though.
Actually, it /is/ configurable in gmail.
It may be configurable, but the defaults persist bad behaviour. They really should be changed.
At Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 06:27 Loui Chang wrote:
I also find mutt's 'T' helps. It hides the quoted text.
Very nice feature. Does anyone knows if this is possible in knode too? See you, Attila
On Jan 11, 2010 at 09:27 PM, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
I also find mutt's 'T' helps. It hides the quoted text.
OMG how did I NOT know that! You sir, deserve a cookie. That just made mutt so much more enjoyable on my netbook.
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:33:20 -0700, Steve Holmes <steve.holmes88@gmail.com> wrote:
If bottom-posting is so passionately desirable, then may I suggest people trim down the history of a thread.
One is supposed to add their answer to the bottom of the _quote_ not the mail. People who do otherwise are indeed worse then top-posters.
Of course interlacing replies with quoted text makes a lot of sense when you have multiple issues or questions being asked.
It makes sense for multiple _statements_. That's why you put statements in paragraphs.
Anyway, just my thoughts, not trying to war or any of that, just trying to see the proes and cons of e-mail styles.
With improper quoting style, you have to extract the history of a discussion from the thread view and content combined. With proper quoting, only the current mail view is enough. It doesn't matter if you top or bottom post in that regard, but bottom posting seems to make sense in a western culture where we read logs from top to bottom. Not sure why some people are so nazi on top posting when improper quoting and "me too" posts are the actual problem.
On Sat, 2010-01-16 at 09:31 +0100, Arvid Picciani wrote:
Not sure why some people are so nazi on top posting when improper quoting and "me too" posts are the actual problem.
Probably because (in my experience at least) top-posting occurs much more frequently than "me too" posts at least, probably more frequently than improper quoting as well.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 05:12:31PM +0800, Ng Oon-Ee wrote:
Probably because (in my experience at least) top-posting occurs much more frequently than "me too" posts at least, probably more frequently than improper quoting as well.
And yet when I see the top-posted mails, most of the time I don't need to read the rest of the previously quoted message - especially if I'm on a roll and am familiar with the current thread. I guess if one is reading for a historical perspective then it makes more sense to put the reply at the bottom but then I found myself having to read the history over and over again. If I addopt bottom posting, I plan then to delete all but the most recent post to keep thing conscise. Actually I'm run into *MANY* of these huge long threads in a single message to have a "Mee to" or "+1" at the bottom That's why I found that style to be so inefficient and wasting of my time. Actually when you think about it, most blogs are all in reverse chronical order which to me is the same thing as top-posting and nobody seems to complain about that concept. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREDAAYFAktW7HcACgkQWSjv55S0LfGvsQCfUgPSh/tMLIshq9+5RzqIpDfV h88AnRv5oMWRLIlCOaZ/CfSXtqyy9sXa =iFcp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 04:43 -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 05:12:31PM +0800, Ng Oon-Ee wrote:
Probably because (in my experience at least) top-posting occurs much more frequently than "me too" posts at least, probably more frequently than improper quoting as well.
And yet when I see the top-posted mails, most of the time I don't need to read the rest of the previously quoted message - especially if I'm on a roll and am familiar with the current thread. I guess if one is reading for a historical perspective then it makes more sense to put the reply at the bottom but then I found myself having to read the history over and over again. If I addopt bottom posting, I plan then to delete all but the most recent post to keep thing conscise. Actually I'm run into *MANY* of these huge long threads in a single message to have a "Mee to" or "+1" at the bottom That's why I found that style to be so inefficient and wasting of my time.
Honestly, I just scroll straight to the bottom, Evolution marks all the quoted stuff for me anyway so that the real replies stand out. With bottom-posting the wasted time is the amount of time taken to scroll to the bottom. With top posting the wasted time is having to scroll down for perspective. I'd wager a quick scroll is faster than having to scroll up and down to read and get perspective. However, in the end its more of a consensus thing. MLs generally agree on bottom-posting, and so top-posting in that context, whatever its merits, isn't good manners. Similarly bottom-posting my replies to my relatives "hi how are you" emails is very bad manners. To each their own.
Actually when you think about it, most blogs are all in reverse chronical order which to me is the same thing as top-posting and nobody seems to complain about that concept.
This is slightly off-tangent, but personally I feel blogs are less dependent on context, with each post standing on its own, whereas email threads are very context dependent as each new mail is a REPLY to the one before. Honestly, my ultimate solution would look very much like gmail's 'threaded view'. Unfortunately no desktop app that I've seen manages to get a similar handling =(.
Excerpts from Ng Oon-Ee's message of Wed Jan 20 13:08:19 +0100 2010:
On Wed, 2010-01-20 at 04:43 -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 05:12:31PM +0800, Ng Oon-Ee wrote:
Probably because (in my experience at least) top-posting occurs much more frequently than "me too" posts at least, probably more frequently than improper quoting as well.
And yet when I see the top-posted mails, most of the time I don't need to read the rest of the previously quoted message - especially if I'm on a roll and am familiar with the current thread. I guess if one is reading for a historical perspective then it makes more sense to put the reply at the bottom but then I found myself having to read the history over and over again. If I addopt bottom posting, I plan then to delete all but the most recent post to keep thing conscise. Actually I'm run into *MANY* of these huge long threads in a single message to have a "Mee to" or "+1" at the bottom That's why I found that style to be so inefficient and wasting of my time.
Honestly, I just scroll straight to the bottom, Evolution marks all the quoted stuff for me anyway so that the real replies stand out. With bottom-posting the wasted time is the amount of time taken to scroll to the bottom. With top posting the wasted time is having to scroll down for perspective. I'd wager a quick scroll is faster than having to scroll up and down to read and get perspective.
However, in the end its more of a consensus thing. MLs generally agree on bottom-posting, and so top-posting in that context, whatever its merits, isn't good manners. Similarly bottom-posting my replies to my relatives "hi how are you" emails is very bad manners. To each their own.
Actually when you think about it, most blogs are all in reverse chronical order which to me is the same thing as top-posting and nobody seems to complain about that concept.
This is slightly off-tangent, but personally I feel blogs are less dependent on context, with each post standing on its own, whereas email threads are very context dependent as each new mail is a REPLY to the one before.
Honestly, my ultimate solution would look very much like gmail's 'threaded view'. Unfortunately no desktop app that I've seen manages to get a similar handling =(.
Have you heard of sup? I've never used gmail but I read sup was inspired by gmail. Well, I'm very happy with sup, bottom posting is no issue since quotes take up one line until expanded. Often you can read the original messages instead of the quotes due to the thread view. You need external apps for sending and receiving, like alpine, but setup in general seems to be much simpler. Imho it bottom posting is the way to go, with replies to paragraphs of a mail where it makes sense. For me personally it doesn't matter much, thanks to sup. The only drawback right now is that sup is still very young, it has its quirks. Never the less it's the best mail client I've used so far (used only claws mail before), especially when it comes to reading and searching and I don't regret that I switched. Regards, Philipp
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:46:41 +0100 Philipp Überbacher <hollunder@lavabit.com> wrote:
The only drawback right now is that sup is still very young, it has its quirks. Never the less it's the best mail client I've used so far (used only claws mail before), especially when it comes to reading and searching and I don't regret that I switched.
Regards, Philipp
i'm also using claws. the biggest thing that bothers me about it is not enough customisation options, no event system, no easily scripting things inside it (they are working on an events system but it supports only 3 events now afaik, and you can spawn external scripts with keybinds but it's hard to modify the behavior or state of claws from external scripts). one of the many examples: I want to be able to change html/image viewing settings depending on sender address or open mailbox. any thoughts on those things re: sup and claws? Dieter
On 01/20/2010 08:44 PM, Dieter Plaetinck wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:46:41 +0100 Philipp Überbacher<hollunder@lavabit.com> wrote:
The only drawback right now is that sup is still very young, it has its quirks. Never the less it's the best mail client I've used so far (used only claws mail before), especially when it comes to reading and searching and I don't regret that I switched.
Regards, Philipp
i'm also using claws. the biggest thing that bothers me about it is not enough customisation options, no event system, no easily scripting things inside it (they are working on an events system but it supports only 3 events now afaik, and you can spawn external scripts with keybinds but it's hard to modify the behavior or state of claws from external scripts). one of the many examples: I want to be able to change html/image viewing settings depending on sender address or open mailbox.
any thoughts on those things re: sup and claws?
Dieter
Thunderbird 3 is also good. Thunderbird by default bottom posts (it can be changed though). -- Nilesh Govindarajan Site & Server Adminstrator www.itech7.com
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:01:09 +0530 Nilesh Govindarajan <lists@itech7.com> wrote:
On 01/20/2010 08:44 PM, Dieter Plaetinck wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:46:41 +0100 Philipp Überbacher<hollunder@lavabit.com> wrote:
The only drawback right now is that sup is still very young, it has its quirks. Never the less it's the best mail client I've used so far (used only claws mail before), especially when it comes to reading and searching and I don't regret that I switched.
Regards, Philipp
i'm also using claws. the biggest thing that bothers me about it is not enough customisation options, no event system, no easily scripting things inside it (they are working on an events system but it supports only 3 events now afaik, and you can spawn external scripts with keybinds but it's hard to modify the behavior or state of claws from external scripts). one of the many examples: I want to be able to change html/image viewing settings depending on sender address or open mailbox.
any thoughts on those things re: sup and claws?
Dieter
Thunderbird 3 is also good. Thunderbird by default bottom posts (it can be changed though).
thunderbird doesn't offer any of the things I'm looking for (see above), is bloat and makes a mess in its user's $HOME. Dieter
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Steve Holmes <steve.holmes88@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually when you think about it, most blogs are all in reverse chronical order which to me is the same thing as top-posting and nobody seems to complain about that concept.
Separate blog posts are typically unrelated, so there is no reason they should be chronologically ordered. How about blog comments? In nearly all blog publishers, they are in chronological order. Regards, Marti
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Marti Raudsepp <marti@juffo.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Steve Holmes <steve.holmes88@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually when you think about it, most blogs are all in reverse chronical order which to me is the same thing as top-posting and nobody seems to complain about that concept.
Separate blog posts are typically unrelated, so there is no reason they should be chronologically ordered.
How about blog comments? In nearly all blog publishers, they are in chronological order.
I agree, one blog post + comments is more analog to one mail thread. So I like to have the same order as in blogs : threads / blog post in reverse order (most recent on top) , but inside each of them, bottom-posting / chronological order. Actually when you use a thread view, you usually get a chronological order for all mails inside a thread. If you combine that with top-posting, its a bit weird.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Steve Holmes <steve.holmes88@gmail.com>:
If I addopt bottom posting, I plan then to delete all but the most recent post to keep thing conscise. Sure! That's the right(tm) way to do it. ;-)
Actually I'm run into *MANY* of these huge long threads in a single message to have a "Mee to" or "+1" at the bottom Yes, that's true. It's annoying to scroll down, search for the reply and then read a simple "+1". I wish, that those emails would be cropped and simply a "+1" (perhaps with a small description) is sent.
Actually when you think about it, most blogs are all in reverse chronical order which to me is the same thing as top-posting and nobody seems to complain about that concept. Meh, I see comments on a blog more a as thought of the writer instead of discussions like here on ML.
- -- Gruß, Johannes http://hehejo.de -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAktW8rwACgkQhIafEwbLdWBC5gCfciW2XBb3LG7FhrZZaD/gLiWR b8MAniIp/WzlZkDr13uN+wnRaAlBYfm3 =9/ke -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
2010/1/20 Johannes Held <mail@hehejo.de>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Steve Holmes <steve.holmes88@gmail.com>:
If I addopt bottom posting, I plan then to delete all but the most recent post to keep thing conscise. Sure! That's the right(tm) way to do it. ;-)
Actually I'm run into *MANY* of these huge long threads in a single message to have a "Mee to" or "+1" at the bottom Yes, that's true. It's annoying to scroll down, search for the reply and then read a simple "+1". I wish, that those emails would be cropped and simply a "+1" (perhaps with a small description) is sent.
Actually when you think about it, most blogs are all in reverse chronical order which to me is the same thing as top-posting and nobody seems to complain about that concept. Meh, I see comments on a blog more a as thought of the writer instead of discussions like here on ML.
A forum thread (which displays in chronological order) is a pretty close thing to a mailing list?
participants (21)
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Aaron Griffin
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Allan McRae
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Arvid Picciani
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Attila
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Damien Churchill
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Dieter Plaetinck
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Guus Snijders
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Johannes Held
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Kevin Monceaux
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Loui Chang
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ludovic coues
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Marti Raudsepp
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Ng Oon-Ee
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Nilesh Govindarajan
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Philipp Überbacher
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Simon Boulay
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solsTiCe d'Hiver
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Steve Holmes
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Thayer Williams
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Xavier
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Xavier Chantry