[arch-general] Wanted: advice dual-booting Arch and Windows 7 on new laptop
Hi everyone TL;DR: I've just bought a new HP Pavilion g6-2103ax, and I'm having difficulties trying to figure out how I can dual-boot it with Windows 7 (which was preinstalled). Windows *still* defaults to using MBR partitions, and even though the system is UEFI, HP have used some trickery somewhere to make it boot from BIOS. To make matters worse, the disk table already has four partitions: SYSTEM: 199 MB NTFS Windows C drive: ~ 450 GB NTFS HP Recovery partition: 18.5 GB NTFS HP_TOOLS: 99 MB FAT32 The SYSTEM partition seems to contain the Windows bootloader, or something along those lines. The HP Recovery partition contains the software necessary to do a factory reset, and HP_TOOLS contains some UEFI applications (some system diagnostic things). C drive is Windows. What I was thinking of doing was shrinking C drive, and deleting the recovery partition to make space for Arch. But on my first attempt, parted bricked the table, and whilst I was able to recover it, Windows refused to boot. I obtained recovery disks to restore it, but they are completely non-interactive so cannot be used to rescue Windows, only reset to factory initial state. Due to the arrangement of the partitions, I don't think creating an Extended partition will work (they need to be the last one in the table, don't they?), and while I've read GRUB2 can use /boot in LVM, I'm not sure whether this will work. Also, I've never used GRUB2 before, and its configs look formidable compared to Syslinux. Ideally I'd switch to GPT, but Windows needs to be booted in UEFI mode for this, but I have no idea how to enable this as there's neither a switch in the BIOS settings, nor settings in Windows. Can anyone advise me on how I could overcome these issues? Has anyone had any experience with new HP g6 models?
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Robbie Smith <zoqaeski@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone
TL;DR: I've just bought a new HP Pavilion g6-2103ax, and I'm having difficulties trying to figure out how I can dual-boot it with Windows 7 (which was preinstalled).
Windows *still* defaults to using MBR partitions, and even though the system is UEFI, HP have used some trickery somewhere to make it boot from BIOS. To make matters worse, the disk table already has four partitions:
SYSTEM: 199 MB NTFS Windows C drive: ~ 450 GB NTFS HP Recovery partition: 18.5 GB NTFS HP_TOOLS: 99 MB FAT32
The SYSTEM partition seems to contain the Windows bootloader, or something along those lines. The HP Recovery partition contains the software necessary to do a factory reset, and HP_TOOLS contains some UEFI applications (some system diagnostic things). C drive is Windows.
What I was thinking of doing was shrinking C drive, and deleting the recovery partition to make space for Arch. But on my first attempt, parted bricked the table, and whilst I was able to recover it, Windows refused to boot. I obtained recovery disks to restore it, but they are completely non-interactive so cannot be used to rescue Windows, only reset to factory initial state.
Due to the arrangement of the partitions, I don't think creating an Extended partition will work (they need to be the last one in the table, don't they?), and while I've read GRUB2 can use /boot in LVM, I'm not sure whether this will work. Also, I've never used GRUB2 before, and its configs look formidable compared to Syslinux. Ideally I'd switch to GPT, but Windows needs to be booted in UEFI mode for this, but I have no idea how to enable this as there's neither a switch in the BIOS settings, nor settings in Windows.
Can anyone advise me on how I could overcome these issues? Has anyone had any experience with new HP g6 models?
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Robbie Smith <zoqaeski@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone
TL;DR: I've just bought a new HP Pavilion g6-2103ax, and I'm having difficulties trying to figure out how I can dual-boot it with Windows 7 (which was preinstalled).
Windows *still* defaults to using MBR partitions, and even though the system is UEFI, HP have used some trickery somewhere to make it boot from BIOS. To make matters worse, the disk table already has four partitions:
SYSTEM: 199 MB NTFS Windows C drive: ~ 450 GB NTFS HP Recovery partition: 18.5 GB NTFS HP_TOOLS: 99 MB FAT32
The SYSTEM partition seems to contain the Windows bootloader, or something along those lines. The HP Recovery partition contains the software necessary to do a factory reset, and HP_TOOLS contains some UEFI applications (some system diagnostic things). C drive is Windows.
What I was thinking of doing was shrinking C drive, and deleting the recovery partition to make space for Arch. But on my first attempt, parted bricked the table, and whilst I was able to recover it, Windows refused to boot. I obtained recovery disks to restore it, but they are completely non-interactive so cannot be used to rescue Windows, only reset to factory initial state.
Due to the arrangement of the partitions, I don't think creating an Extended partition will work (they need to be the last one in the table, don't they?), and while I've read GRUB2 can use /boot in LVM, I'm not sure whether this will work. Also, I've never used GRUB2 before, and its configs look formidable compared to Syslinux. Ideally I'd switch to GPT, but Windows needs to be booted in UEFI mode for this, but I have no idea how to enable this as there's neither a switch in the BIOS settings, nor settings in Windows.
Can anyone advise me on how I could overcome these issues? Has anyone had any experience with new HP g6 models?
Hi Robbie I will try to give you some advice based on my own experience with my HP laptop (Pavilion dv7-4287cl) I bought roughly one year and half ago. Short answer: nuke Windows, GPT your disk -be aware that it's likely to be a 4kb/sector hd so take that in mind when partitioning-, install Arch, what else? Oh yeah: never again buy any HP related product. But I want to keep Windoze! answer: the four partitions layout is a shitty move from HP/Microsoft, they enforce you to use only Windows because as you already discovered the "rescue DVD" (rescue, yeah, they're shameless) restores exactly that layout: it wipes your disk and recreate the same structure; worst: if you read the HP warranty they say that it will be void if you modify in any way the original layout of your hard drive, so in the case -we hope not of course- you need to send your computer to their tech support staff be sure to restore your HD to factory defaults before send it or you'll be out of luck - yeah, they sucks. So if you can't resize the actual Windows C: partition to make space for Arch then you're out of luck but if you can then remember to backup your MBR and partition table just in case: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GRUB2#MBR_aka_msdos_partitioning_specif..., I think your best bet here will be GRUB Legacy (Syslinux may do the job too but since I never really used it besides some playing I don't know if it will work or not, check the wiki). Another thing you may try -if you *really* need a physical install of W7- is downloading a W7 that matchs your installed W7 version and try to use your license key on it - I'm pretty sure it will likely don't work since the good people at Micro$oft makes sure the licenses you already paid from one source don't work on any other side (good people!) but who knows... One last thing: if you choose to go with the Arch Linux only install you are legally backed to ask for a full money refund for what you paid for the Windows license -at least in my country-, do check at the store where you bought your machine for the refund.
On 19/09/12 03:39, Martín Cigorraga wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Robbie Smith <zoqaeski@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone
TL;DR: I've just bought a new HP Pavilion g6-2103ax, and I'm having difficulties trying to figure out how I can dual-boot it with Windows 7 (which was preinstalled).
Windows *still* defaults to using MBR partitions, and even though the system is UEFI, HP have used some trickery somewhere to make it boot from BIOS. To make matters worse, the disk table already has four partitions:
SYSTEM: 199 MB NTFS Windows C drive: ~ 450 GB NTFS HP Recovery partition: 18.5 GB NTFS HP_TOOLS: 99 MB FAT32
The SYSTEM partition seems to contain the Windows bootloader, or something along those lines. The HP Recovery partition contains the software necessary to do a factory reset, and HP_TOOLS contains some UEFI applications (some system diagnostic things). C drive is Windows.
What I was thinking of doing was shrinking C drive, and deleting the recovery partition to make space for Arch. But on my first attempt, parted bricked the table, and whilst I was able to recover it, Windows refused to boot. I obtained recovery disks to restore it, but they are completely non-interactive so cannot be used to rescue Windows, only reset to factory initial state.
Due to the arrangement of the partitions, I don't think creating an Extended partition will work (they need to be the last one in the table, don't they?), and while I've read GRUB2 can use /boot in LVM, I'm not sure whether this will work. Also, I've never used GRUB2 before, and its configs look formidable compared to Syslinux. Ideally I'd switch to GPT, but Windows needs to be booted in UEFI mode for this, but I have no idea how to enable this as there's neither a switch in the BIOS settings, nor settings in Windows.
Can anyone advise me on how I could overcome these issues? Has anyone had any experience with new HP g6 models?
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Robbie Smith <zoqaeski@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone
TL;DR: I've just bought a new HP Pavilion g6-2103ax, and I'm having difficulties trying to figure out how I can dual-boot it with Windows 7 (which was preinstalled).
Windows *still* defaults to using MBR partitions, and even though the system is UEFI, HP have used some trickery somewhere to make it boot from BIOS. To make matters worse, the disk table already has four partitions:
SYSTEM: 199 MB NTFS Windows C drive: ~ 450 GB NTFS HP Recovery partition: 18.5 GB NTFS HP_TOOLS: 99 MB FAT32
The SYSTEM partition seems to contain the Windows bootloader, or something along those lines. The HP Recovery partition contains the software necessary to do a factory reset, and HP_TOOLS contains some UEFI applications (some system diagnostic things). C drive is Windows.
What I was thinking of doing was shrinking C drive, and deleting the recovery partition to make space for Arch. But on my first attempt, parted bricked the table, and whilst I was able to recover it, Windows refused to boot. I obtained recovery disks to restore it, but they are completely non-interactive so cannot be used to rescue Windows, only reset to factory initial state.
Due to the arrangement of the partitions, I don't think creating an Extended partition will work (they need to be the last one in the table, don't they?), and while I've read GRUB2 can use /boot in LVM, I'm not sure whether this will work. Also, I've never used GRUB2 before, and its configs look formidable compared to Syslinux. Ideally I'd switch to GPT, but Windows needs to be booted in UEFI mode for this, but I have no idea how to enable this as there's neither a switch in the BIOS settings, nor settings in Windows.
Can anyone advise me on how I could overcome these issues? Has anyone had any experience with new HP g6 models?
Managed to get it all up and running, and added to the Laptops which run Arch thread on the forums. Should I add a section on the wiki on the steps I used? I haven't got an account there yet, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to have one.
On 09/24/2012 10:25 AM, Robbie Smith wrote:
Managed to get it all up and running, and added to the Laptops which run Arch thread on the forums. Should I add a section on the wiki on the steps I used? I haven't got an account there yet, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to have one.
Yes, get an account and update the wiki. The wiki is one of the best among all distros precisely because people take the time to add information like this to it. The wiki is mediawiki, so syntax is simple with many good references to go by. Arch uses some helpful macros (ie. {{Note|blah blah}} and {{Warning| blah blah}} ) that really help emphasize the critical info. Good work on the HP box. Nothing worse than hardware that is impossible to use the way you want to... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Personally if you have a large enough separate drive and enough patience. I would do a bit level copy which if successful is guaranteed to put the disk back exactly.
#/bin/dd bs=32k if=/dev/sd? | /usr/bin/gzip > /media/usb0/hpBACKUP.dd.gz
Restore with
#/bin/cat /media/usb0/hpBACKUP.dd.gz | /usr/bin/gunzip | /bin/dd bs=32k of=/dev/sd?
You could also use ntfsclone which is part of the ntfsprogs package to get an image of the windows partition just after resizing the partitions. ntfsclone -s -o sda1.img /dev/sda1 Now provided that the partition table entry does not change position or size you can restore it to its original state with ntfsclone -r -O /dev/sda1 sda1.img The main benefit of this method is that ntfsclone understands empty space in the partition and the resulting image is only marginally larger than the actual data stored in the partition. For example an ntfs partition with size 100GB having 20GB of data and the rest being empty space could be backed up to a 20GB image file. George Nikolopoulos
On 18 September 2012 17:14, Robbie Smith <zoqaeski@gmail.com> wrote:
Can anyone advise me on how I could overcome these issues? Has anyone had any experience with new HP g6 models?
My current laptop is not my own, and when I got it, I didn't want to mess with the partitioning. So I made some space using gparted running from a LiveCD (you get more space that way, but defragment first), installed Arch there, used GRUB (legacy, but any would do) on the partition, and booted using Windows bootloader :) [1] [1] http://blog.famzah.net/2011/11/12/boot-linux-using-windows-7-boot-loader/ -- GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1
2012/9/18 Robbie Smith <zoqaeski@gmail.com>:
Hi everyone
TL;DR: I've just bought a new HP Pavilion g6-2103ax, and I'm having difficulties trying to figure out how I can dual-boot it with Windows 7 (which was preinstalled).
Windows *still* defaults to using MBR partitions, and even though the system is UEFI, HP have used some trickery somewhere to make it boot from BIOS. To make matters worse, the disk table already has four partitions:
SYSTEM: 199 MB NTFS Windows C drive: ~ 450 GB NTFS HP Recovery partition: 18.5 GB NTFS HP_TOOLS: 99 MB FAT32 [...]
Hmm, i'd guess that the recovery partition is bootable, so it's best not to modify it too much. The HP_Tools partition is probably just a data partition (and not a very interesting one, but ymmv). First of; do you have (or can you create) a recovery disk in case all goes wrong? There might be a way to repartition the drive without losing features: 1. Resize the Windows "C" partition to free up space. Either defragment first or use windows's diskpart utitility. 2. move (don't delete!) the recovery partition next to the resized Windows partition. Now the tricky part: 3. either create an image of the tools partition or write down the *exact* sectors it's using and the partition type number. 4. create a new extended partition in the free space, size: all available. 5a. create a logical partition using the type and sectors written down at step 3 OR 5b. create a logical partition of the same type and size as written down at step 3 and restore the image to this part. 6. If you used step 5a, move this (new!) logical partition to the beginning of the free space. This is important for Windows drive letters (not sure). 7. Use the rest of the extended partition to create your Linux partitions. I'm not sure where the bootloader fits in best in the scenario, but that shouldn't be too hard. When you boot up Windows after all this, you might want to delete the driveletters it will probably create for the Linux partitions to avoid accidentally formatting them ;). Hope that helps. Note: this is just theoretical. It might work or it might not work... mvg, Gus
On 19/09/12 07:02, Guus Snijders wrote:
2012/9/18 Robbie Smith <zoqaeski@gmail.com>:
Hi everyone
TL;DR: I've just bought a new HP Pavilion g6-2103ax, and I'm having difficulties trying to figure out how I can dual-boot it with Windows 7 (which was preinstalled).
Windows *still* defaults to using MBR partitions, and even though the system is UEFI, HP have used some trickery somewhere to make it boot from BIOS. To make matters worse, the disk table already has four partitions:
SYSTEM: 199 MB NTFS Windows C drive: ~ 450 GB NTFS HP Recovery partition: 18.5 GB NTFS HP_TOOLS: 99 MB FAT32 [...]
Hmm, i'd guess that the recovery partition is bootable, so it's best not to modify it too much. The HP_Tools partition is probably just a data partition (and not a very interesting one, but ymmv). First of; do you have (or can you create) a recovery disk in case all goes wrong?
There might be a way to repartition the drive without losing features:
1. Resize the Windows "C" partition to free up space. Either defragment first or use windows's diskpart utitility. 2. move (don't delete!) the recovery partition next to the resized Windows partition. Now the tricky part: 3. either create an image of the tools partition or write down the *exact* sectors it's using and the partition type number. 4. create a new extended partition in the free space, size: all available. 5a. create a logical partition using the type and sectors written down at step 3 OR 5b. create a logical partition of the same type and size as written down at step 3 and restore the image to this part. 6. If you used step 5a, move this (new!) logical partition to the beginning of the free space. This is important for Windows drive letters (not sure). 7. Use the rest of the extended partition to create your Linux partitions.
I'm not sure where the bootloader fits in best in the scenario, but that shouldn't be too hard.
When you boot up Windows after all this, you might want to delete the driveletters it will probably create for the Linux partitions to avoid accidentally formatting them ;).
Hope that helps. Note: this is just theoretical. It might work or it might not work...
mvg, Gus
I can delete the recovery partition, as I've got the "recovery" (AKA factory reset) disks from HP under warranty. The HP_TOOLS partition is at the end of the disk, so in theory I can't add an extended partition before it, as extended partitions are meant to be the last in the table. Although on this Samsung netbook I've got an extended partition as the third (marked with *) of four primaries, so it seems to work: # parted GNU Parted 3.1 Using /dev/sda Welcome to GNU Parted! Type 'help' to view a list of commands. (parted) p Model: ATA Hitachi HTS54323 (scsi) Disk /dev/sda: 320GB Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/512B Partition Table: msdos Disk Flags: Number Start End Size Type File system Flags 1 1049kB 106MB 105MB primary ntfs 2 106MB 98.9GB 98.8GB primary ntfs * 3 98.9GB 303GB 205GB extended * 5 98.9GB 233GB 134GB logical ntfs * 6 233GB 233GB 57.5MB logical ext2 boot * 7 233GB 303GB 70.0GB logical lvm 4 303GB 320GB 16.6GB primary ntfs diag Using that as a guide I could set up the new laptop in a similar way. It's a shame HP and Microsoft made it so difficult, and after this little episode I'm beginning to suspect that the real reason Microsoft is pushing Secure Boot is because UEFI+GPT makes it much easier to install multiple operating systems on a machine without conflicts, but Secure Boot will require an authorised and signed key, and guess who will control the key distribution…
I can delete the recovery partition, as I've got the "recovery" (AKA factory reset) disks from HP under warranty.
Personally if you have a large enough separate drive and enough patience. I would do a bit level copy which if successful is guaranteed to put the disk back exactly. #/bin/dd bs=32k if=/dev/sd? | /usr/bin/gzip > /media/usb0/hpBACKUP.dd.gz Restore with #/bin/cat /media/usb0/hpBACKUP.dd.gz | /usr/bin/gunzip | /bin/dd bs=32k of=/dev/sd? -- _______________________________________________________________________ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) _______________________________________________________________________
2012/9/19 Robbie Smith <zoqaeski@gmail.com>:
On 19/09/12 07:02, Guus Snijders wrote:
2012/9/18 Robbie Smith <zoqaeski@gmail.com>:
Hi everyone
TL;DR: I've just bought a new HP Pavilion g6-2103ax, and I'm having difficulties trying to figure out how I can dual-boot it with Windows 7 (which was preinstalled).
Windows *still* defaults to using MBR partitions, and even though the system is UEFI, HP have used some trickery somewhere to make it boot from BIOS. To make matters worse, the disk table already has four partitions:
SYSTEM: 199 MB NTFS Windows C drive: ~ 450 GB NTFS HP Recovery partition: 18.5 GB NTFS HP_TOOLS: 99 MB FAT32
[...]
Hmm, i'd guess that the recovery partition is bootable, so it's best not to modify it too much. The HP_Tools partition is probably just a data partition (and not a very interesting one, but ymmv). First of; do you have (or can you create) a recovery disk in case all goes wrong?
[moving and deleting partitions]
I'm not sure where the bootloader fits in best in the scenario, but that shouldn't be too hard.
[...] I can delete the recovery partition, as I've got the "recovery" (AKA factory reset) disks from HP under warranty. The HP_TOOLS partition is at the end of the disk, so in theory I can't add an extended partition before it, as extended partitions are meant to be the last in the table. Although on this Samsung netbook I've got an extended partition as the third (marked with *) of four primaries, so it seems to work: [...] Using that as a guide I could set up the new laptop in a similar way.
Indeed. In fact an extended partition is just a "special" primary partition. In theory a single (MBR) harddisk could just as easily have 4 extended partitions.
It's a shame HP and Microsoft made it so difficult, and after this little episode I'm beginning to suspect that the real reason Microsoft is pushing Secure Boot is because UEFI+GPT makes it much easier to install multiple operating systems on a machine without conflicts, but Secure Boot will require an authorised and signed key, and guess who will control the key distribution…
I'm still not entirely sure what the real benefits of GPT are, but that's another discussion. That they made a it a bit more difficult; no argument there. I guess they assume users never touch the partition table anyway. As for secure boot: Redhead/Fedora were working (or perhaps already having) a secure bootloader. It would't be too hard to install that and use it to boot ArchLinux. ;) mvg, Guus
On 09/18/2012 02:14 AM, Robbie Smith wrote:
Due to the arrangement of the partitions, I don't think creating an Extended partition will work (they need to be the last one in the table, don't they?)
There are no extended partitions in UEFI. They're all primary partitions and you can have more than four. As to the rest of your saga, I, too, have a bricked Windows installation on my mother's machine. Fortunately, she is, for the most part, adapting well to Linux.
participants (8)
-
David Benfell
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David C. Rankin
-
Georgios Nikolopoulos
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Guus Snijders
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Kevin Chadwick
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Martín Cigorraga
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Rashif Ray Rahman
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Robbie Smith