[arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users
For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux, without the agony: 1) http://sourceforge.net/projects/architect-linux 2) http://arch-anywhere.org And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux: http://antergos.com You are welcome.
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 11:31:47 -0400 Francis Gerund via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux, without the agony:
1) http://sourceforge.net/projects/architect-linux
And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:
You are welcome.
Note that all of these are regarded as separate distros and will NOT be supported by Arch in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC.
Note that all of these are regarded as separate distros and will NOT be
supported by Arch in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC.
While Antergos is indeed a separate distribution (but very close to raw Arch), the Archtect Arch Installer and Arch-Anywhere are not distributions, they are just installers for Arch. And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the Arch community that will be happy to help, without questioning the pedigree of the user's installation.
On 22-09-2016 16:47, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Note that all of these are regarded as separate distros and will NOT be
supported by Arch in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC.
While Antergos is indeed a separate distribution (but very close to raw Arch), the Archtect Arch Installer and Arch-Anywhere are not distributions, they are just installers for Arch.
And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the Arch community that will be happy to help, without questioning the pedigree of the user's installation.
Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on the forums will be closed and binned on sight. -- Mauro Santos
On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the TalkingArch project, which makes the installation process accessible to the visually impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the official Arch maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use Arch at all thanks to this project.
Am I the only one that can't understand the reason of this thread? Ale On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:26 PM, Zachary Kline <zkline@speedpost.net> wrote:
On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the TalkingArch project, which makes the installation process accessible to the visually impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the official Arch maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use Arch at all thanks to this project.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 09:26:35AM -0700, Zachary Kline wrote:
On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the TalkingArch project, which makes the installation process accessible to the visually impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the official Arch maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use Arch at all thanks to this project.
The point is that the official Arch Linux support channels (forums, mailing lists, etc.) are only for official Arch projects. Any derivative projects, be they custom installers, distro derivatives, or anything else, need to run their own support channels. If you have an issue with Talking Arch, bring it up with the Talking Arch project maintainers. If they find your problem is actually with something in Arch itself, then it would be approproate to raise the issue on the official Arch support channels. --Sean
Tinu, The phrase "You are welcome" is actually meant to be indicative of the attitude with which I hope that new users would be greeted. Thank you for allowing me to clarify that point. On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Sean Greenslade <sean@seangreenslade.com> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 09:26:35AM -0700, Zachary Kline wrote:
On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general <
arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers
on
the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the TalkingArch project, which makes the installation process accessible to the visually impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the official Arch maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use Arch at all thanks to this project.
The point is that the official Arch Linux support channels (forums, mailing lists, etc.) are only for official Arch projects. Any derivative projects, be they custom installers, distro derivatives, or anything else, need to run their own support channels.
If you have an issue with Talking Arch, bring it up with the Talking Arch project maintainers. If they find your problem is actually with something in Arch itself, then it would be approproate to raise the issue on the official Arch support channels.
--Sean
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 01:22:44PM -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
The point is that the official Arch Linux support channels (forums, mailing lists, etc.) are only for official Arch projects. Any derivative projects, be they custom installers, distro derivatives, or anything else, need to run their own support channels.
If you have an issue with Talking Arch, bring it up with the Talking Arch project maintainers. If they find your problem is actually with something in Arch itself, then it would be approproate to raise the issue on the official Arch support channels.
--Sean
Tinu,
The phrase "You are welcome" is actually meant to be indicative of the attitude with which I hope that new users would be greeted.
Thank you for allowing me to clarify that point.
Please: 1. Bottom post your replies, like I have shown above. 2. Trim quoted content appropriately. 3. Reply to the message you are addressing, not a random message on a different branch of the discussion. All this helps keep mailing list threads readable and makes archives more easy to navigate. Thanks, --Sean
Same here, but fortunately we have linuxquestions.com and support@talkingarch.tk. On Thu, 22 Sep 2016, Zachary Kline wrote:
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:26:35 From: Zachary Kline <zkline@speedpost.net> Reply-To: General Discussion about Arch Linux <arch-general@archlinux.org> To: General Discussion about Arch Linux <arch-general@archlinux.org> Subject: Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users
On Sep 22, 2016, at 9:21 AM, Mauro Santos via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
How does one define ?third-party installer?? By my reading, the TalkingArch project, which makes the installation process accessible to the visually impaired, could qualify, as it isn?t released by the official Arch maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use Arch at all thanks to this project.
--
On 22-09-2016 17:26, Zachary Kline wrote:
How does one define “third-party installer?” By my reading, the TalkingArch project, which makes the installation process accessible to the visually impaired, could qualify, as it isn’t released by the official Arch maintainers. This would be deeply upsetting to me, as I am only able to use Arch at all thanks to this project.
If I understand correctly, from what the description on the TalkingArch project webpage says, it is the Arch iso with a few added packages to help the visually impaired install Arch. I suppose that by this it means the user is responsible for doing all the steps described in the wiki to install Arch. I don't see any problem with this. What I meant before is curses/graphical/one click installers that do everything automagically. The user will be clueless as to what is installed and how it is configured, and will waste everyone's time playing a game of twenty questions to solve a trivial problem when the solution is many of the times in a wiki page. -- Mauro Santos
I don't know how to search waybackmachine.com but for those interested in this topic perhaps the last real beginners guide got archived over there. That's usually where old files and web pages end up. On Thu, 22 Sep 2016, Mauro Santos via arch-general wrote:
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:21:30 From: Mauro Santos via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> To: arch-general@archlinux.org Cc: Mauro Santos <registo.mailling@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [arch-general] Arch GNU/Linux install for beginners and new users
On 22-09-2016 16:47, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Note that all of these are regarded as separate distros and will NOT be
supported by Arch in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC.
While Antergos is indeed a separate distribution (but very close to raw Arch), the Archtect Arch Installer and Arch-Anywhere are not distributions, they are just installers for Arch.
And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the Arch community that will be happy to help, without questioning the pedigree of the user's installation.
Third party installers are not supported in any shape or form. Threads asking for support about derivative distros or third party installers on the forums will be closed and binned on sight.
--
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 11:47:32 -0400, Francis Gerund wrote:
And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the Arch community that will be happy to help, without questioning the pedigree of the user's installation.
You compare apples with oranges. Yes, I'm helping Antergos users, see https://sourceforge.net/p/alsa/mailman/message/35379098/ . However, you should notice that the link isn't an Arch related mailing list. Arch general isn't the appropriate mailing list for Arch based distros. No distro's forum can provide support for another distro, simply because it isn't useful for those using the other distro, not because we are cruel, we simply don't know this other distro and it's confusing for those who use the distro that originally belongs to the forum, too. Regards, Ralf
While Antergos is indeed a separate distribution (but very close to raw Arch), the Archtect Arch Installer and Arch-Anywhere are not distributions, they are just installers for Arch.
So to give you some background why you get the hostility, here's some things I've experienced from the frontlines of Arch Linux support (I am vodik on #archlinux irc channel). Here's the thing with installers - what did they install? I don't mean in a rough sense, like it installed Gnome or whatnot, I mean in *detail*. The devil is in the detail. With so many possible combinations of packages to get a working desktop, its important to know what was installed, what came from official repos, what might have come from elsewhere. Now the bridge with derivatives and installers was burned by some of the earlier (and I think mostly now defunct) derivatives. You had distros claiming to be Arch, nothing more than an installed, but installing packages from AUR by default. What did that mean? Tons of technical support questions asking why package foo broke on upgrade. Why did pkg foo break? Because it never was in the official repos and therefore sitting unmaintained on user's machines. And the user **didn't know**. I'm all for taking advantage of the AUR, but it should be informed decision, not something someone makes for you (and we don't even officially support the AUR to boot). The most pointed example was ArchBang (I think) shipping cairo-ubuntu from AUR by default. After a particular cario update where every other package that depended on cario had to be rebuild, ArchBang installs broke, because it was stuck on the old version. Why was this a support nightmare? Because so many users jumped into #archlinux, complaining about their broken Arch Linux install, and it wasn't our fault. Because those users **didn't know** that package was on their system, not getting updates, and didn't realize it wasn't our fault. And because they didn't know, it was bigger a struggle to initially debug.
And I do believe there are quite a few friendly, helpful people in the Arch community that will be happy to help, without questioning the pedigree of the user's installation.
Its not a matter of pedigree, its a matter of having informed users. If your users are aware of every detail the installer performs, and that this installer doesn't do anything funny or anything outside of official packages, your users will be fine getting Arch Linux support. Nobody will be the wiser - but that's the important detail. But we do have to make it clear that we won't **officially** support anything installed outside of the officially sanctions instructions. I don't see that as unreasonable.
Simon, Thank you for your taking the time for your thoughtful, informative explanation. And thank you for your support service in #archlinux on IRC! So - supporting other distributions, or even other installation modalities is not "officially" supported. Okay, fine. I never said that anyone MUST support anything. Please consider this as the bottom line: 1) If you have the time and knowledge to answer a question or provide other support, please do so. And thank you! 2) If you do not have the time or knowledge to answer a question or provide other support, then don't, but please say so, if you have the time to do that. 3) Please do not criticize, ridicule, or discourage others from trying to answer questions or provide other support, regardless of who is requesting help, or how they "got here". I really don't think that is too much to ask.
On 22/09/16 at 03:40pm, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
3) Please do not criticize, ridicule, or discourage others from trying to answer questions or provide other support, regardless of who is requesting help, or how they "got here".
Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work? https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_Linux_distribution... /J -- http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you
make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work? https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_ Linux_distribution_support_ONLY
/J
--
http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
Jason, Thank you for the link to the "Code of Conduct, etc.". USA, 1850: "Rather than telling us how our country *should not* have slavery, why don't you make some effort to learn that it actually *does* have slavery?" (And that the US Supreme Court said that is okay.) :)
On 22/09/16 at 04:50pm, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you
make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work? https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_ Linux_distribution_support_ONLY
/J
--
http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
Jason,
Thank you for the link to the "Code of Conduct, etc.".
USA, 1850: "Rather than telling us how our country *should not* have slavery, why don't you make some effort to learn that it actually *does* have slavery?" (And that the US Supreme Court said that is okay.)
There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one of the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but for the community. Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome. /J -- http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one of the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but for the community. Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
/J
--
http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
Dear, sweet Jason, Thank you for your interest. But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very least. I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again. It might not be considered welcome. With warmest regards, y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
Wait, let me grab some popcorn first. Okay, go on... On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one of the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but for the community. Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
/J
--
http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
Dear, sweet Jason,
Thank you for your interest.
But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very least.
I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again. It might not be considered welcome.
With warmest regards, y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 17:22:57 -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one of the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but for the community.
Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
/J
--
http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
Dear, sweet Jason,
Thank you for your interest.
But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very least.
I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again. It might not be considered welcome.
With warmest regards, y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
Free speech, what's that? On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Tinu Weber <takeya@bluewin.ch> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 17:22:57 -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one of the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but for the community.
Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
/J
--
http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
Dear, sweet Jason,
Thank you for your interest.
But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very least.
I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again. It might not be considered welcome.
With warmest regards, y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
2016/09/23 7:02 "D C via arch-general" <arch-general@archlinux.org>:
Free speech, what's that?
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Tinu Weber <takeya@bluewin.ch> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 17:22:57 -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
There have been some pretty specious comparisons in this thread, but having the gall to mention slavery in the context of an online community for a computer operating system would have to rank as one of the most offensive and moronic, not just for this thread, or this ML but for the community.
Don't post anything like this again. It is not welcome.
/J
--
http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
Dear, sweet Jason,
Thank you for your interest.
But telling someone else what to post or not to post (not to mention sophomoric name-calling), might be considered impropriety at the very least.
I ask that you please refrain from posting anything like this again. It might not be considered welcome.
With warmest regards, y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
*facedesks* *drop mic* *grab popcorn* Go on *cough*
Hi D C, Freedom of speech means being able to say whatever you want to say, without interference from sel-appointed sidewalk supervisors or other members of the Peanut Gallery. HTH.
It was sarcasm =) On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
Hi D C,
Freedom of speech means being able to say whatever you want to say, without interference from sel-appointed sidewalk supervisors or other members of the Peanut Gallery.
HTH.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 18:10:43 -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Freedom of speech means being able to say whatever you want to say, without interference from self-appointed sidewalk supervisors or other members of the Peanut Gallery.
The linked comic points out exactly *that*: "Free speech" only means you can't be legally punished for saying/writing something - but it doesn't mean that a community must accept it if they consider it stupid. Furthermore, Jason isn't "self-appointed", so https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Respect_the_staff
When I frist meet people I give them the utmost respect, then I basically treat them the way they treat me. I urge everyone to do the same, that goes for staff and the rest of the Arch community.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:56 PM, D C via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
When I frist meet people I give them the utmost respect, then I basically treat them the way they treat me. I urge everyone to do the same, that goes for staff and the rest of the Arch community.
D C, Now that's just about the most sensible thing I've seen posted here all day. Thank You!
Thank you, Francis. On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:56 PM, D C via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
When I frist meet people I give them the utmost respect, then I basically treat them the way they treat me. I urge everyone to do the same, that goes for staff and the rest of the Arch community.
D C,
Now that's just about the most sensible thing I've seen posted here all day.
Thank You!
On 22-09-2016 23:10, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Hi D C,
Freedom of speech means being able to say whatever you want to say, without interference from sel-appointed sidewalk supervisors or other members of the Peanut Gallery.
HTH. .
All nice and well, but don't forget your freedom ends where the freedom of others start. When you go to someone's house either you abide by their rules or you get reprimanded or kicked out. The same logic applies in the ML and the forums. When you decide to run a forum or ML providing support for whatever you fancy then you can manage it any way you like, here you have to abide by the rules put in place by the people running the forums/ML/IRC. -- Mauro Santos
Hi Maurio, Thank you for your opinion. In regard to your postulate, if my freedom ends where the others starts, then it would seem that the reverse is also true, that the freedom of others ends where my freedom starts. With warmest regards, y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
On 09/22/2016 08:06 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Hi Maurio,
Thank you for your opinion. In regard to your postulate, if my freedom ends where the others starts, then it would seem that the reverse is also true, that the freedom of others ends where my freedom starts.
With warmest regards, y'r obd't srvt., F.G.
While that is certainly true, I don't understand why you thought he might think otherwise. And I also don't understand, what the actual point of your reply was. Did you mean to insinuate something? If so, please stop immediately, and instead actually tell us what you mean to say. This guessing game is not amusing. -- Eli Schwartz
On 23-09-2016 01:06, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Hi Maurio,
Thank you for your opinion. In regard to your postulate, if my freedom ends where the others starts, then it would seem that the reverse is also true, that the freedom of others ends where my freedom starts.
Yes that is true, I never said it wasn't. Yet you conveniently ignore what I have written below that. Arch is not yours, you don't make it or run/manage the infrastructure, to use the same analogy as before, this is not your house so either you abide by the rules of the house or you get reprimanded or kicked out. -- Mauro Santos
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:25 PM, Mauro Santos via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
On 23-09-2016 01:06, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Hi Maurio,
Thank you for your opinion. In regard to your postulate, if my freedom ends where the others starts, then it would seem that the reverse is also true, that the freedom of others ends where my freedom starts.
Yes that is true, I never said it wasn't. Yet you conveniently ignore what I have written below that. Arch is not yours, you don't make it or run/manage the infrastructure, to use the same analogy as before, this is not your house so either you abide by the rules of the house or you get reprimanded or kicked out.
-- Mauro Santos
Hi Maurio. You must be an American.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 04:50:54PM -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Rather than telling us how our community *should* work, why don't you
make some effort to learn how it actually *does* work? https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Code_of_conduct#Arch_ Linux_distribution_support_ONLY
/J
--
http://jasonwryan.com/ GPG: 7817 E3FF 578E EEE1 9F64 D40C 445E 52EA B1BD 4E40
Jason,
Thank you for the link to the "Code of Conduct, etc.".
USA, 1850: "Rather than telling us how our country *should not* have slavery, why don't you make some effort to learn that it actually *does* have slavery?" (And that the US Supreme Court said that is okay.)
:)
Couple of points: 1. Arch is not a democracy. See the "Respect the Staff" entry in the code of conduct. 2. Your comparison to slavery is completely uncalled for. Banning the dicussion of unsupported software is no where close to a human rights violation. Please discuss matters without ridiculous hyperbole. 3. Operating this mailing list, the forums, IRC channels, etc. costs both time and money. Thus, the maintainers of these avenues of discourse have every right to dictate what can or cannot be discussed on them. If you want to help users of unsupported installers, don't do it on Arch's dime. --Sean
On 09/22/2016 03:40 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Simon,
Thank you for your taking the time for your thoughtful, informative explanation.
And thank you for your support service in #archlinux on IRC!
So - supporting other distributions, or even other installation modalities is not "officially" supported. Okay, fine.
I never said that anyone MUST support anything. Please consider this as the bottom line:
1) If you have the time and knowledge to answer a question or provide other support, please do so. And thank you!
2) If you do not have the time or knowledge to answer a question or provide other support, then don't, but please say so, if you have the time to do that.
3) Please do not criticize, ridicule, or discourage others from trying to answer questions or provide other support, regardless of who is requesting help, or how they "got here".
I really don't think that is too much to ask.
It absolutely, positively is too much to ask. You cannot come to "our" forums and pollute it with noise that actively detracts from the usefulness of the forums. The problem with you, is that you seem to erroneously believe that that means Arch Linux disapproves of those people getting help at all. Arch Linux is very supportive of those people getting help *from the locations best equipped to provide them with help*. Which isn't here. And it is unconscionably rude to pollute the Arch Linux support resources with counterproductive noise, therefore people who do so anyway *deserve* our disdain. If we so chose to be disdainful, which most Archers actually don't... -- Eli Schwartz
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:22:24 -0400 Simon Gomizelj via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
But we do have to make it clear that we won't **officially** support anything installed outside of the officially sanctions instructions. I don't see that as unreasonable.
I have to agree. As someone who works software QA professionally, I feel the pain. On the QA team, we can only test a certain number of configurations because of time. Anything else? Well, you are basically blazing your own trail. The same rule applies to support. Yes, it is possible to debug issues on "unsupported" configurations, but the process is almost always a time sink (i.e. low reward to cost ratio). This is why there is a little hostility toward the third party tools. They increase the amount of support work drastically. vodik, keep up the good work! --Kyle -- The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. - Frank Zappa
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 11:31:47 -0400, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
You are welcome.
This implies that people are thanking you for something...
On 22 September 2016 at 17:31, Francis Gerund via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux, without the agony: And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:
There’s no such thing as “Arch GNU/Linux”. The OS you’re thinking about is called “Arch Linux”. -- Chris Warrick <https://chriswarrick.com/> PGP: 5EAAEA16
Chris, Thank you for your interest. Perhaps you may find this helpful: http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.en.html On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Chris Warrick via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
On 22 September 2016 at 17:31, Francis Gerund via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux, without the agony: And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:
There’s no such thing as “Arch GNU/Linux”. The OS you’re thinking about is called “Arch Linux”.
-- Chris Warrick <https://chriswarrick.com/> PGP: 5EAAEA16
Its not a dig at GNU, the official name is either "Arch Linux" or "Arch". We're a GNU/Linux distro (though we don't meet the FSF foundation's definition, but you always have Parabola then). https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_terminology#Arch_Linux
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Simon Gomizelj <simon@vodik.xyz> wrote:
Its not a dig at GNU, the official name is either "Arch Linux" or "Arch". We're a GNU/Linux distro (though we don't meet the FSF foundation's definition, but you always have Parabola then).
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_terminology#Arch_Linux
Hi Simon. Thank you for the link you provided. "You say 'tomayto', I say 'tomahto' . . ." "You say Arch (or Arch Linux, or archlinux), I say GNU/Linux . . .) Either way, what does it matter? I live in a culture that at least gives "lip service" to freedom of speech. Thus, I try not to tell other people what to say or not to say, and I would hope for the same from others in return.
Either way, what does it matter?
I live in a culture that at least gives "lip service" to freedom of speech. Thus, I try not to tell other people what to say or not to say, and I would hope for the same from others in return.
Sure, you have all the freedom to call things by the wrong name. No skin off my back. I think we're misunderstanding each other anyways.
On 09/22/2016 03:10 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Hi Simon.
Thank you for the link you provided.
"You say 'tomayto', I say 'tomahto' . . ." "You say Arch (or Arch Linux, or archlinux), I say GNU/Linux . . .)
Either way, what does it matter?
I live in a culture that at least gives "lip service" to freedom of speech. Thus, I try not to tell other people what to say or not to say, and I would hope for the same from others in return.
You are of course welcome to call Arch Linux anything you want. You can in fact call it an *actual* tomato, if you really want. That doesn't make you right. And that doesn't mean other people know what you are talking about, if you insist on using your own private references to things, although I concede in this case, that your mistake is common enough that people will likely recognize what you really mean. Arch Linux is a distribution, not an operating system. It is a *distribution* of Linux or GNU/Linux or whatever you feel the compulsive need to call it. It is the prerogative of the distribution leaders to choose the nomenclature. But even according to the logic of the FSF, it is simply factually wrong to call a *distribution* the "Arch GNU/Linux distribution" or whatever, when their actual beef is with the operating system. It doesn't really matter though, since the FSF and their political activism is still deeply wrong. For perspective, a couter-argument: http://linux.topology.org/lingl.html Also, ISTR a mention, somewhere, about the FSF trying to *tell* Arch Linux that they should change their name -- and the official Arch response was "how utterly rude of you to tell us what to call ourselves. Please never speak again." (I have no idea where though, so if anyone recognizes this and has a link, I'd appreciate it.) ... In short, take your political activism elsewhere, it is inappropriate on this thread. Alternatively, stop offering suggestions for distributions that are not Arch Linux, on the Arch Linux mailing list. -- Eli Schwartz
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:29:32 -0400, Simon Gomizelj via arch-general wrote:
Its not a dig at GNU, the official name is either "Arch Linux" or "Arch". We're a GNU/Linux distro (though we don't meet the FSF foundation's definition, but you always have Parabola then).
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_terminology#Arch_Linux
Usually GNU/Linux distros don't provide linuxsampler by official repositories. [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ pacman -Si linuxsampler | head -7 Repository : community Name : linuxsampler Version : 2.0.0-4 Description : Professional-grade audio sampler alternative to Gigasampler Architecture : x86_64 URL : http://www.linuxsampler.org/ Licenses : GPL custom:exception Distros often have issues with the "exception". https://www.linuxsampler.org/faq.html#open_source The suggested package isn't available: https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/qsampler http://packages.ubuntu.com/en/xenial/qsampler Regards, Ralf
Am 22.09.2016 um 19:54 schrieb Francis Gerund via arch-general:
Chris, Thank you for your interest. Perhaps you may find this helpful:
No, we don't find this helpful at all. The FSF has no right to forcefully rename what we call our OS. We call it "Arch Linux" because we like that name. We don't call it "Arch GNU/Linux" because that sounds stupid. The GPL explicitly allows us to distribute any software licensed under it freely. There is no clause in the GPL that we have to include the name "GNU" in our name in order to do so. By the FSF's argument, we should call it "Arch freedesktop/GNU/systemd/KDE/GNOME/Linux", but that sounds even worse.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
Am 22.09.2016 um 19:54 schrieb Francis Gerund via arch-general:
Chris, Thank you for your interest. Perhaps you may find this helpful:
No, we don't find this helpful at all.
The FSF has no right to forcefully rename what we call our OS. We call it "Arch Linux" because we like that name. We don't call it "Arch GNU/Linux" because that sounds stupid.
The GPL explicitly allows us to distribute any software licensed under it freely. There is no clause in the GPL that we have to include the name "GNU" in our name in order to do so.
By the FSF's argument, we should call it "Arch freedesktop/GNU/systemd/KDE/GNOME/Linux", but that sounds even worse.
Hi Thomas, I have never said that you have to call it anything. You are free to call it whatever you want to. And so am I.
* Talks about distros that aren't Arch on a Arch mailing list * Starts calling it Arch GNU/Linux (from here on out I will personally call it Ubuntu /sarcasm) * Compares the CoC to slavery (unfortunately missed the opportunity to use Reductio ad Hitlerum) Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list? On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Francis Gerund via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
Am 22.09.2016 um 19:54 schrieb Francis Gerund via arch-general:
Chris, Thank you for your interest. Perhaps you may find this helpful:
No, we don't find this helpful at all.
The FSF has no right to forcefully rename what we call our OS. We call it "Arch Linux" because we like that name. We don't call it "Arch GNU/Linux" because that sounds stupid.
The GPL explicitly allows us to distribute any software licensed under it freely. There is no clause in the GPL that we have to include the name "GNU" in our name in order to do so.
By the FSF's argument, we should call it "Arch freedesktop/GNU/systemd/KDE/GNOME/Linux", but that sounds even worse.
Hi Thomas,
I have never said that you have to call it anything. You are free to call it whatever you want to.
And so am I.
On 09/22/2016 08:09 PM, aur basica via arch-general wrote:
* Talks about distros that aren't Arch on a Arch mailing list * Starts calling it Arch GNU/Linux (from here on out I will personally call it Ubuntu /sarcasm)
What is wrong with "tomato"?
* Compares the CoC to slavery (unfortunately missed the opportunity to use Reductio ad Hitlerum)
I was rather disappointed at that myself. :D
Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?
Just trolling of course. Because why else would he have posted such deliberately provocative things, *and then proceeded to disrespect the support staff*? -- Eli Schwartz
Anyone else who replies to this thread will be stuck in the moderation queue (which no-one checks). Allan
On 09/22/2016 08:19 PM, Allan McRae wrote:
Anyone else who replies to this thread will be stuck in the moderation queue (which no-one checks).
I took this to mean that this thread got "locked" so to speak, and any replies to this thread would require manual approval (which isn't going to happen) by a list moderator in order to get through. So, why are people still successfully posting new emails to this email thread? :( Because I was enjoying the thought that we wouldn't have to listen to any further stupidity, and I feel kind of let down that it isn't so... -- Eli Schwartz
On 23/09/16 14:23, Eli Schwartz via arch-general wrote:
On 09/22/2016 08:19 PM, Allan McRae wrote:
Anyone else who replies to this thread will be stuck in the moderation queue (which no-one checks).
I took this to mean that this thread got "locked" so to speak, and any replies to this thread would require manual approval (which isn't going to happen) by a list moderator in order to get through.
So, why are people still successfully posting new emails to this email thread? :( Because I was enjoying the thought that we wouldn't have to listen to any further stupidity, and I feel kind of let down that it isn't so...
Everyone who replies to the list (you included) are banned from posting until I feel like reinstating permissions. Allan
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:09 PM, aur basica <aurbasica@gmail.com> wrote:
* Talks about distros that aren't Arch on a Arch mailing list * Starts calling it Arch GNU/Linux (from here on out I will personally call it Ubuntu /sarcasm) * Compares the CoC to slavery (unfortunately missed the opportunity to use Reductio ad Hitlerum)
Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?
Hi, aur basica: I don't recall mentioning any distribution other than Arch GNU/Linux, except for the OpenBSD project, as an example of what can happen when a distribution becomes pereceived by the public as insular and insolent. Again, I have never said that you have to call it anything. You are free to call it whatever you want to. And, of course, so am I. BTW, I am not trolling. Are you?
LOL <https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRAHmnlSJUK7V2kyFwQ-UNqy4kYJmsNhM4VaJlI0XZanJMtyjRy> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:09 PM, aur basica <aurbasica@gmail.com> wrote:
* Talks about distros that aren't Arch on a Arch mailing list * Starts calling it Arch GNU/Linux (from here on out I will personally call it Ubuntu /sarcasm) * Compares the CoC to slavery (unfortunately missed the opportunity to use Reductio ad Hitlerum)
Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?
Hi, aur basica:
I don't recall mentioning any distribution other than Arch GNU/Linux, except for the OpenBSD project, as an example of what can happen when a distribution becomes pereceived by the public as insular and insolent.
Again, I have never said that you have to call it anything. You are free to call it whatever you want to. And, of course, so am I.
BTW, I am not trolling. Are you?
-- Public_Key_Block.asc <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0zp7CJCfCsIM29IMnpEYW9vdTg/view?ths=true>
To be fair, I think I'm trolling more than Francis. On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:23 PM, D C <camenschic@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general < arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 8:09 PM, aur basica <aurbasica@gmail.com> wrote:
* Talks about distros that aren't Arch on a Arch mailing list * Starts calling it Arch GNU/Linux (from here on out I will personally call it Ubuntu /sarcasm) * Compares the CoC to slavery (unfortunately missed the opportunity to use Reductio ad Hitlerum)
Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?
Hi, aur basica:
I don't recall mentioning any distribution other than Arch GNU/Linux, except for the OpenBSD project, as an example of what can happen when a distribution becomes pereceived by the public as insular and insolent.
Again, I have never said that you have to call it anything. You are free to call it whatever you want to. And, of course, so am I.
BTW, I am not trolling. Are you?
-- Public_Key_Block.asc <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0zp7CJCfCsIM29IMnpEYW9vdTg/view?ths=true>
-- Public_Key_Block.asc <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0zp7CJCfCsIM29IMnpEYW9vdTg/view?ths=true>
On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 10:09:14 +1000, aur basica via arch-general wrote:
Any particular reason you're trolling the mailing list?
The OP does, because some of us still reply ;). Let's ignore the two threads!
On 09/22/2016 08:00 PM, Francis Gerund via arch-general wrote:
Hi Thomas,
I have never said that you have to call it anything. You are free to call it whatever you want to.
And so am I.
But not on the Arch Linux mailing list -- we don't support other distros here, and whatever "Arch GNU/Linux" is, it isn't "Arch Linux". :p :p So please take it to the mailing list and/or support forums of this "Arch GNU/Linux" distro you speak of -- I bet they will appreciate it... -- Eli Schwartz
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 19:39:29 +0200, Chris Warrick via arch-general wrote:
On 22 September 2016 at 17:31, Francis Gerund via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux, without the agony: And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:
There’s no such thing as “Arch GNU/Linux”. The OS you’re thinking about is called “Arch Linux”.
Francis, as a starting point consider to beginn reading at https://www.fsf.org/news/free-distributions-updates-kongoni-trisquel . Perhaps we could find an end for this thread, before the list owner decides to close the list for a day ;). I'm still watching the install guide wiki, assuming that notifications were not bounced, then until now nobody mentioned an issue with this wiki, nobody added suggestions about what needs to be improved. IMO the tone of voice by this thread became borderline. I'm going to ignore this thread soon. Regards, Ralf
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Ralf Mardorf <silver.bullet@zoho.com> wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 19:39:29 +0200, Chris Warrick via arch-general wrote:
On 22 September 2016 at 17:31, Francis Gerund via arch-general <arch-general@archlinux.org> wrote:
For beginners and new users, here is how to install Arch GNU/Linux, without the agony: And here is a "user-centric" alternative to Arch GNU/Linux:
There’s no such thing as “Arch GNU/Linux”. The OS you’re thinking about is called “Arch Linux”.
Francis, as a starting point consider to beginn reading at https://www.fsf.org/news/free-distributions-updates-kongoni-trisquel . Perhaps we could find an end for this thread, before the list owner decides to close the list for a day ;).
I'm still watching the install guide wiki, assuming that notifications were not bounced, then until now nobody mentioned an issue with this wiki, nobody added suggestions about what needs to be improved.
IMO the tone of voice by this thread became borderline.
I'm going to ignore this thread soon.
Regards, Ralf
Ralf, I did read the web page that you provided a link for. I must confess that I did not see the relevance of the linked page to this discussion. I seemed to be an announcement of two distributions being added to the FSF list of free software distributions, from 2009. ???
On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:11:28 -0400, Francis Gerund wrote:
I did read the web page that you provided a link for. I must confess that I did not see the relevance of the linked page to this discussion. I seemed to be an announcement of two distributions being added to the FSF list of free software distributions, from 2009.
???
We became way to off-topic. Visiting the link it provides other links and IMO it makes clear how much RMS / FSF philosophy is bound to GNU/Linux. "Parabola GNU/Linux-libre – an Arch community-driven distribution that is fully conformant with the GNU Free System Distribution Guidelines, uses the Linux-libre kernel and excludes all other proprietary software and firmware normally found in Arch" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_Linux#Derivatives 2 Cents, Ralf -- Death of ROXTerm https://sourceforge.net/p/roxterm/discussion/422638/thread/60da6975/
participants (19)
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Alessio 'Blaster' Biancalana
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Allan McRae
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aur basica
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Chris Warrick
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D C
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Doug Newgard
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Dragon ryu
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Eli Schwartz
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Francis Gerund
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Jason Ryan
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Jude DaShiell
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Kyle Terrien
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Mauro Santos
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Ralf Mardorf
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Sean Greenslade
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Simon Gomizelj
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Thomas Bächler
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Tinu Weber
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Zachary Kline