[arch-general] Arch-general is becoming a mess !
Hello. I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008), and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this mailing list, and the community too. Last threads on systemd was useless. And I can understand that every single developer will unsuscribe. As a user, I will do so too. I think archlinux community needs a little clean up and kick the bottom of people who are not arguing but messing lists. I won't post anymore on this list, but I wanted to express my mind here. Please, excuse my bad english, it is 10 pm where I live. -- Frederic Bezies fredbezies@gmail.com
Le mercredi 15 août 2012 22:02:57 fredbezies a écrit :
Hello.
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008), and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this mailing list, and the community too.
Last threads on systemd was useless. And I can understand that every single developer will unsuscribe. As a user, I will do so too. I think archlinux community needs a little clean up and kick the bottom of people who are not arguing but messing lists.
I won't post anymore on this list, but I wanted to express my mind here.
Please, excuse my bad english, it is 10 pm where I live.
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
On 16 Aug 2012 04:57, "set" <nmset@netcourrier.com> wrote:
Le mercredi 15 août 2012 22:02:57 fredbezies a écrit :
Hello.
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008), and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this mailing list, and the community too.
Last threads on systemd was useless. And I can understand that every single developer will unsuscribe. As a user, I will do so too. I think archlinux community needs a little clean up and kick the bottom of people who are not arguing but messing lists.
I won't post anymore on this list, but I wanted to express my mind here.
Please, excuse my bad english, it is 10 pm where I live.
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 Aug 2012 04:57, "set" <nmset@netcourrier.com> wrote:
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
I think there are list management software that can allows moderation But there should be someone willing to cope with that boring task of being the gate keeper. I really think that we should ban peopple more often (if there was a temporary ban, even better). -- A: Because it obfuscates the reading. Q: Why is top posting so bad? For more information, please read: http://idallen.com/topposting.html ------------------------------------------- Denis A. Altoe Falqueto Linux user #524555 -------------------------------------------
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto <denisfalqueto@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 Aug 2012 04:57, "set" <nmset@netcourrier.com> wrote:
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
I think there are list management software that can allows moderation But there should be someone willing to cope with that boring task of being the gate keeper.
I really think that we should ban peopple more often (if there was a temporary ban, even better).
We already have a moderated channel. Its called the Arch forums (bbs.archlinux.org). Unfortunately the SNR there is worse than here (speaking as a mod), at least prior to this systemd/LP stuff. Advantages of forums - at least 3 of those posting here on the ML would have been given a short holiday for type of post. Disadvantage - to put it bluntly, too many clueless users. Not that it seems the ML is any different these last few days. Choose your poison.
Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto <denisfalqueto@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 Aug 2012 04:57, "set" <nmset@netcourrier.com> wrote:
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
I think there are list management software that can allows moderation But there should be someone willing to cope with that boring task of being the gate keeper.
I really think that we should ban peopple more often (if there was a temporary ban, even better).
We already have a moderated channel. Its called the Arch forums (bbs.archlinux.org). Unfortunately the SNR there is worse than here (speaking as a mod), at least prior to this systemd/LP stuff.
Advantages of forums - at least 3 of those posting here on the ML would have been given a short holiday for type of post.
Disadvantage - to put it bluntly, too many clueless users. Not that it seems the ML is any different these last few days.
Choose your poison.
I tend to prefer systems that provide mailing lists and forums as two separate frontends to the same data. As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute. -- Jeremiah Dodds blog : http://jdodds.github.com github : https://github.com/jdodds freenode : exhortatory twitter : kaens
On 16 August 2012 06:53, Jeremiah Dodds <jeremiah.dodds@gmail.com> wrote:
Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto <denisfalqueto@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 Aug 2012 04:57, "set" <nmset@netcourrier.com> wrote:
Aren't there any moderators who can kick off trouble makers ?
That's not how MLs work. Unfortunately
I think there are list management software that can allows moderation But there should be someone willing to cope with that boring task of being the gate keeper.
I really think that we should ban peopple more often (if there was a temporary ban, even better).
We already have a moderated channel. Its called the Arch forums (bbs.archlinux.org). Unfortunately the SNR there is worse than here (speaking as a mod), at least prior to this systemd/LP stuff.
Advantages of forums - at least 3 of those posting here on the ML would have been given a short holiday for type of post.
Disadvantage - to put it bluntly, too many clueless users. Not that it seems the ML is any different these last few days.
Choose your poison.
I tend to prefer systems that provide mailing lists and forums as two separate frontends to the same data.
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
-- Jeremiah Dodds
blog : http://jdodds.github.com github : https://github.com/jdodds freenode : exhortatory twitter : kaens
this mailing list has only become a mess because people are intent on voicing the pointless opinions on systemd & it's creator which has forced the dev to unsubscribe due to the sheer pointlessness of the noise being created. To me it is all beginning like the south park scene: rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble -- Regards Thomas Rand
Thomas Rand <tom@tomsbox.co.uk> writes:
On 16 August 2012 06:53, Jeremiah Dodds <jeremiah.dodds@gmail.com> wrote:
I tend to prefer systems that provide mailing lists and forums as two separate frontends to the same data.
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
this mailing list has only become a mess because people are intent on voicing the pointless opinions on systemd & it's creator which has forced the dev to unsubscribe due to the sheer pointlessness of the noise being created.
...
(repeated "rabble" snipped)
A: No one *forced* the dev to do anything. B: If it's noise to you, kill or filter out the threads in your reader. C: Don't complain about the ML being a mess and then paste a paragraph's worth of the same word. -- Jeremiah Dodds blog : http://jdodds.github.com github : https://github.com/jdodds freenode : exhortatory twitter : kaens
Thomas Rand <tom@tomsbox.co.uk> writes:
On 16 August 2012 06:53, Jeremiah Dodds <jeremiah.dodds@gmail.com> wrote:
I tend to prefer systems that provide mailing lists and forums as two separate frontends to the same data.
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
this mailing list has only become a mess because people are intent on voicing the pointless opinions on systemd & it's creator which has forced the dev to unsubscribe due to the sheer pointlessness of the noise being created.
...
(repeated "rabble" snipped)
A: No one *forced* the dev to do anything. oh sorry was that a wrong word choice!!!!!!!(sorry repeated char) either way the dev has gone else where B: If it's noise to you, kill or filter out the threads in your reader. how about the OP takes his argument to another place considering they are off topic & here to insight argument. The only on topic part was
C: Don't complain about the ML being a mess and then paste a paragraph's worth of the same word.
On 16 August 2012 08:54, Jeremiah Dodds <jeremiah.dodds@gmail.com> wrote: that systemd is coming to arch the rest is pointless noise which itself should have been else where. that was an attempt at humour sorry if you did not like it & if you do not like south park but it is true If it were my ML i would have deleted it & sent a msg to the op telling him why. This ML is for general support not a cacophony of opinions on something which at that point in time had not been decided upon which has resulted in this ML becoming a mess. Again sorry if you did not get my light hearted joke from south park but I thought it kinda summed up the situation.
-- Jeremiah Dodds
blog : http://jdodds.github.com github : https://github.com/jdodds freenode : exhortatory twitter : kaens
-- Regards Thomas Rand
Thomas Rand <tom@tomsbox.co.uk> writes:
On 16 August 2012 08:54, Jeremiah Dodds <jeremiah.dodds@gmail.com> wrote:
B: If it's noise to you, kill or filter out the threads in your reader.
how about the OP takes his argument to another place considering they are off topic & here to insight argument. The only on topic part was that systemd is coming to arch the rest is pointless noise which itself should have been else where.
That's the thing, other people are obviously not in agreeance with you about the threads being off-topic. Some people do agree. The ones that do are free to never have to see a systemd thread again, or never see a thread started by a person they think is only here to incite argument again, with minor configuration of any news reader worth it's salt. With "-general" MLs, I don't really see the point of censorship of anything that isn't blatant spam, which the systemd threads are not. I particularly don't see the point when it's generally trivial for people who are bothered by some thread or some offer to hide them. You are not the arbiter of "pointless noise" for this list. Neither am I. I'm the arbiter of "pointless noise" for what I read, and I'm more than capable of ensuring that I don't read "pointless noise" -- so are you. The list should not bend to the whim of accusations of noise, the filters and killfiles of the accuser should. -- Jeremiah Dodds blog : http://jdodds.github.com github : https://github.com/jdodds freenode : exhortatory twitter : kaens
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jeremiah Dodds <jeremiah.dodds@gmail.com> wrote:
With "-general" MLs, I don't really see the point of censorship of anything that isn't blatant spam, which the systemd threads are not. I particularly don't see the point when it's generally trivial for people who are bothered by some thread or some offer to hide them.
The ML is unmoderated, in its current form. And 'trivial to hide' is of course true.
You are not the arbiter of "pointless noise" for this list. Neither am I. I'm the arbiter of "pointless noise" for what I read, and I'm more than capable of ensuring that I don't read "pointless noise" -- so are you. The list should not bend to the whim of accusations of noise, the filters and killfiles of the accuser should.
While this is also true, the practical effect of it is exactly what is happening. Lots of pointless noise which is chasing away devs. Each dev is the arbiter of what constitutes pointless noise for them, and they're deciding. Philosophical platitudes about how everyone should only post and read what they want are pointless in light of that. For me, [arch-general] loses its point if its just a lot of rabble talking to each other. That's the net effect of what's been going on this past week, because most of those with a clue don't have the patience for all this spam. Congratulations to the trolls on the effect they've had.
Congratulations to the trolls on the effect they've had.
Except I would see some of your posts as trolling and I'm sure you would see some of mine as trolling too. I have tried not to but have re-iterated some things when I have felt that blatant inaccuracies have come along and I am sorry for that as it simply exacerbates the problem. It's not like controversial software comes up every day, though it seems to be getting more frequent, I guess due to it being easier to develop programs with less experience. Systemd has outpoured twice since I've been here and apparently before I used arch so let's remember that and simply provide a link to past threads or a 'please google' when anything comes up on those subjects. A consolation. I guess many of us are reasonably well informed on the subject. -- _______________________________________________________________________ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) _______________________________________________________________________
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:53:02AM -0400, Jeremiah Dodds wrote:
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
This. This so very much. We're all consenting adults here. Just hit that delete button, ESC-d, Del or adjust your scorefile/junk filter, and enjoy a quiet evening in your very own bubble of comfortable reality without dissenting opinions! ;) Seriously, the list isn't a *mess*. It's very carefully structured flaming, even sticking to the topic! Heck, it HAS a topic! You'd *love* to have that back once the professional trolls arrive and post ALL OVER THE LIST with anonymous addresses, proxied IPs with new subjects all the time and broken Reply-To headers, making selective filtering nearly impossible for the uninitiated. Please keep in mind that just deleting a post that aggravates you is very, very easily done, even more so if a whole thread is basically derailed and doesn't deserve attention. Instead of asking for moderation, just continue posting worthwile stuff yourself, improving the signal instead of reducing the noise, so to speak. And remember to not feed the trolls. Life goes on. Yeah, that's one smart-ass long-term lurker talking here about improving signal quality with a useless meta-post. :P I, for one, will surely stay subscribed, and would advise against a knee-jerk moderation implementation. The "old man" forwarding is already happening informally in a way, too, with topics started here being picked up in arch-dev. Have a nice day, everyone! Dennis -- "Den Rechtsstaat macht aus, dass Unschuldige wieder frei kommen." Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble, Bundesinnenminister (14.10.08, TAZ-Interview) 0D21BE6C - F3DC D064 BB88 5162 56BE 730F 5471 3881 0D21 BE6C
Am 16.08.2012 08:10, schrieb Dennis Herbrich:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:53:02AM -0400, Jeremiah Dodds wrote:
As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
This. This so very much.
We're all consenting adults here. Just hit that delete button, ESC-d, Del or adjust your scorefile/junk filter, and enjoy a quiet evening in your very own bubble of comfortable reality without dissenting opinions! ;)
So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should remove the offending posts. The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we will have no choice.
On 08/16/2012 03:22 PM, Thomas Bächler wrote:
We're all consenting adults here. Just hit that delete button, ESC-d, Del or adjust your scorefile/junk filter So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should remove the offending posts.
Further, Clever people always have a look at the "community" when choosing a project. For example, before installing a distribution I take care of the support community: - are there MLs? - how crowded (quantity & quality)? - ... Filtering end-user-side will keep the crap archived. Banning will avoid archiving of junk content. Please, consider baning rather than advising filters. Cheers. -- RMA.
The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we will have no choice.
Can we please make the difference between flaming and trolling shown? I think it is clear that all of the people arguing against systemd are 1. On topic 2. No disrupting any normal conversation (it's not like they are preventing regular stuff going on. 3. very concerned with systemd being put in place. 4. sometimes saying very inflammatory statements (but so do people who support systemd) This ML is a great place to discuss stuff, I'd like to keep it that way. Trolling is much more malicious and much more intentional. Please don't accuse people of trolling who are arguing for a real reason.
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:22:58 +0200 schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should remove the offending posts.
The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we will have no choice.
And how do you decide whom to ban? Just because his opinion differs from yours? No personal offend. But there are or have been quite a lot of people here - I would even say, most of the people who are currently screaming the loudest - who are calling other people troll, while being trolls themselves, and shout for banning those people just because those people have different opinions and they can't bear other opinions. If you want to ban one of them you should ban both of them. Of course, this thread is very long. Of course, there's a lot of off-topic in this thread. Of course, there are a lot of pointless and silly e-mails in this thread. Nevertheless there are a lot of interesting and helpful information in this thread. And I think everybody has a right to say his opinion, even if he doesn't have a detailed, technical "proof" of his opinion. And if people can't bear other people's opinions they should think about themselves and not ban the others. Btw., there have been some other long threads on this mailing list as well as on other mailing lists. All of those threads eventually came to an end. And I'm pretty sure that this will be the case with this thread, too. Heiko
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:22:58 +0200 schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should remove the offending posts.
The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we will have no choice.
And how do you decide whom to ban? Just because his opinion differs from yours? No personal offend. But there are or have been quite a lot of people here - I would even say, most of the people who are currently screaming the loudest - who are calling other people troll, while being trolls themselves, and shout for banning those people just because those people have different opinions and they can't bear other opinions.
If you want to ban one of them you should ban both of them.
It's not exactly rocket science. Other forums and mailing lists have moderators and rules. You can even have a team of mods, if you don't trust the one person to decide whether to (temporary) ban or not. Arch has decided the forum needs mods... why shouldn't the mailing list? Cheers, Sander
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Sander Jansen <s.jansen@gmail.com> wrote:
It's not exactly rocket science. Other forums and mailing lists have moderators and rules.
The alternative is not rocket science either; ignore the threads you don't care about. And other mailing lists do that as well (e.g. LKML). -- Felipe Contreras
Am 16.08.2012 16:57, schrieb Heiko Baums:
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:22:58 +0200 schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should remove the offending posts.
The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we will have no choice.
And how do you decide whom to ban? Just because his opinion differs from yours? No personal offend. But there are or have been quite a lot of people here - I would even say, most of the people who are currently screaming the loudest - who are calling other people troll, while being trolls themselves, and shout for banning those people just because those people have different opinions and they can't bear other opinions.
I am not planning to start banning people, at least I don't want to. I am simply stating that it is an option that will be considered and that client-side filtering is not an acceptable solution. I am hoping that the threat of being banned will make people shut up for a day and calm down, then continue discussing normally and calmly.
And I think everybody has a right to say his opinion, even if he doesn't have a detailed, technical "proof" of his opinion.
This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state your _opinion_, get yourself a blog.
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:08:53 +0200 schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state your _opinion_, get yourself a blog.
And if this opinion is about something going on (for the better or for the worse) in Arch Linux? If I have concerns about systemd for good reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like, "personal"? Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical" ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or later. Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs and other users for sure won't know or read? Or would it be better to say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can think about that before probably doing a mistake? Heiko
[2012-08-16 17:28:03 +0200] Heiko Baums:
If I have concerns about systemd for good reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like, "personal"?
Why would any of us care about your personal life?
Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical" ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or later.
Your head must be such as mess if you can make sense of the above...
Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs and other users for sure won't know or read?
Do either. And when you have five seconds please reflect on why none of us would read your blog...
Or would it be better to say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can think about that before probably doing a mistake?
Our mistake is to read your messages. -- Gaetan
Am Fri, 17 Aug 2012 01:56:57 +1000 schrieb Gaetan Bisson <bisson@archlinux.org>:
Why would any of us care about your personal life?
...
Your head must be such as mess if you can make sense of the above...
...
Do either. And when you have five seconds please reflect on why none of us would read your blog...
...
Our mistake is to read your messages.
And you know what you have written? Have you really read my e-mail? I don't think so. I would say, everything you told me outright you should better tell yourself. Honestly I really can't understand what you are referring to, and what you want to tell me. Where have I written anything about my personal life? But never mind. I really don't care. Oh, sorry. I forgot. I shouldn't feed the trolls. Heiko
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 05:28:03PM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote:
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:08:53 +0200 schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state your _opinion_, get yourself a blog.
And if this opinion is about something going on (for the better or for the worse) in Arch Linux? If I have concerns about systemd for good reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like, "personal"? Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical" ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or later.
Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs and other users for sure won't know or read? Or would it be better to say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can think about that before probably doing a mistake?
I agree. Posting on a blog doesn't get you the intended audience, unless it's a well known one. All you'll get is crawlers and spammers. I enjoy all the discussions on this list, and value the opinion of all users, and if there's someone/something I don't like, I just ignore that. As simple as that.
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:53:35AM +0530, gt wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 05:28:03PM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote:
Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:08:53 +0200 schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state your _opinion_, get yourself a blog.
And if this opinion is about something going on (for the better or for the worse) in Arch Linux? If I have concerns about systemd for good reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like, "personal"? Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical" ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or later.
Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs and other users for sure won't know or read? Or would it be better to say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can think about that before probably doing a mistake?
I agree. Posting on a blog doesn't get you the intended audience, unless it's a well known one. All you'll get is crawlers and spammers.
I enjoy all the discussions on this list, and value the opinion of all users, and if there's someone/something I don't like, I just ignore that. As simple as that. heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with systemd and by convention afraid of it, I suppose the devs could lay down the law and just be like 'this is what arch is going to ship with and this is what we are going to support get over it!' then maybe this'll die down. but thats just my 2 cents. I'm like you I don't really care what everyone else thinks whats gonna happen is gonna happen whether certain users like it or not, the final decision is up to the people who develop and maintain arch if they deem something should go or something could goand it would make their job even the slightest bit easier on them, who are we to complain, I mean I've taken a look at the effort it takes to build a distro and let me tell you its not easy making 100's(possibly 1000's) of things to work and play nicely together.
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 01:52:05AM -0400, Justin Strickland wrote:
heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with systemd and by convention afraid of it
I've seen a couple of people for whom this is probably true. But I have seen a couple of posts that seem more educated on the matter. I have to use systemd every day at work. I use it next to several other startup systems which are far worse (including init scripts). It is my use of systemd that causes me to hate it.
According to Justin Strickland:
heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with systemd and by convention afraid of it, I suppose the devs could lay down the law and just be like 'this is what arch is going to ship with and this is what we are going to support get over it!' then maybe this'll die down. but thats just my 2 cents.
The problem is that this has already been done, and the devs have even posted here to let us know that the initscripts package is *not* going away for as long as possible, even before the decision to transition to systemd was finalized. In spite of this, the mess didn't "die down," and some people on the list have resorted to personal attacks against one of the systemd lead developers and other list members in an attempt to sway the Arch devs away from systemd rather than even arguing their case against systemd based on technical criticisms, most of which can bee worked out by reporting bugs through the official channels, including the Arch bug tracker[1] and the systemd bug tracker[2]. It is such personal attacks against both the developers of systemd and others on this list that prompted Tom and other Arch developers to minimize their contact with the list, and I for one don't blame them for wanting to stay out of the line of fire. [1] https://bugs.archlinux.org [2] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=systemd ~Kyle
Kyle +1, personally its not as if they are forcing systemd on you they aren't locking you out of your choice of an init system I've seen too many people either unaware of this or have failed to remember that arch(as well as linux in general) is a system of choices of which if you happen to find something you don't agree with you can change it without too much hassle. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Kyle <kyle@gmx.ca> wrote:
According to Justin Strickland:
heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with
systemd and by convention afraid of it, I suppose the devs could lay down the law and just be like 'this is what arch is going to ship with and this is what we are going to support get over it!' then maybe this'll die down. but thats just my 2 cents.
The problem is that this has already been done, and the devs have even posted here to let us know that the initscripts package is *not* going away for as long as possible, even before the decision to transition to systemd was finalized. In spite of this, the mess didn't "die down," and some people on the list have resorted to personal attacks against one of the systemd lead developers and other list members in an attempt to sway the Arch devs away from systemd rather than even arguing their case against systemd based on technical criticisms, most of which can bee worked out by reporting bugs through the official channels, including the Arch bug tracker[1] and the systemd bug tracker[2]. It is such personal attacks against both the developers of systemd and others on this list that prompted Tom and other Arch developers to minimize their contact with the list, and I for one don't blame them for wanting to stay out of the line of fire.
[1] https://bugs.archlinux.org [2] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/**enter_bug.cgi?product=systemd<https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=systemd> ~Kyle
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008), and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients have an option to mute a thread. -- Felipe Contreras
Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008), and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the list to make it quiet again.
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008), and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the list to make it quiet again.
That's not more pragmatic, that's more authoritarian, but whatever floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly the way. Cheers. -- Felipe Contreras
Am 16.08.2012 15:08, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008), and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the list to make it quiet again.
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
that's more authoritarian, but whatever floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly the way.
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has been the last few days.
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
Am 16.08.2012 15:08, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008), and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the list to make it quiet again.
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
that's more authoritarian, but whatever floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly the way.
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has been the last few days.
That's authoritarian. -- Felipe Contreras
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has been the last few days.
That's authoritarian.
But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different. Regards,
On 16 August 2012 09:19, Vytautas Stankevičius <brotheris@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has been the last few days.
That's authoritarian.
But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.
Regards,
Right, but waving a ban hammer around makes it not a fun place to be.
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Vytautas Stankevičius <brotheris@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has been the last few days.
That's authoritarian.
But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.
The authoritarianism is what makes it a privilege. If there was freedom of speech like in LKML, then it would be a right (kinda). -- Felipe Contreras
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 03:29:32PM +0200, Felipe Contreras wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Vytautas Stankevičius <brotheris@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has been the last few days.
That's authoritarian.
But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.
The authoritarianism is what makes it a privilege. If there was freedom of speech like in LKML, then it would be a right (kinda).
-- Felipe Contreras
look at the end of the day this is a place for archlinux support & discussions with dev's, this is why there are policies for this & other forms of communication with the dev's & users. it is not about free speach or whether this is authoritarian it is about what this place has become due to people forcing arguments which become flame & troll fest's & get further away from policies to the point where the dev's unsubscribe! When that happens the ML begins to fail because of the actions of a few. I joined this ML in an attempt to give back to the commuinity some of the small knowledge i have by way of helping others with basic issue's they have, but the people i have turned on to Arch have seen this here & have stated they wont bother with the ML as it appears to be just flame wars!!!!!!!!!!! Whether you feel your argument was justified or not is mute when a support channel becomes a troll & flamme fest hence why the dev's left. all i see here recently are rants on rants which really should be taken else where.
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Tom Rand <tom@tomsbox.co.uk> wrote:
look at the end of the day this is a place for archlinux support & discussions with dev's, this is why there are policies for this & other forms of communication with the dev's & users. it is not about free speach or whether this is authoritarian it is about what this place has become due to people forcing arguments which become flame & troll fest's & get further away from policies to the point where the dev's unsubscribe!
I'm sure Vladimir Putin would say cracking on dissent is not about authoritarianism, but maintaining a level of civility (or whatever excuse he comes up with). The fact of the matter is that it's irrelevant what you say banning is all about; it's still authoritarianism. You can argue about the benefits of authoritarianism all day long, but it's still authoritarianism.
all i see here recently are rants on rants which really should be taken else where.
Ignore them. Again, that's what people do on LKML, and guess what: it works. -- Felipe Contreras
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 03:15:36PM +0200, Thomas B?chler wrote:
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
You seem to be conflating pragmatism with bigotry. Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed by other peoples' silliness.
On 16 August 2012 11:47, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia <archlinux@ishpeck.net> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 03:15:36PM +0200, Thomas B?chler wrote:
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
You seem to be conflating pragmatism with bigotry.
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed by other peoples' silliness.
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very upset and taken leave of the list. http://xkcd.com/386/
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:50:20AM -0400, Calvin Morrison wrote:
On 16 August 2012 11:47, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia <archlinux@ishpeck.net> wrote:
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed by other peoples' silliness.
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very upset and taken leave of the list.
I don't really blame him. His goal, in reading the list, is to help those who need technical support in the stuff he works on. His goal is not to have philosophical arguments with people about software he has no intention on working on. If we have a healthy and lively debate that he has no part in, and these debates end up dominating the list, he _should_ move. There is no harm in focusing on what matters to you.
On 16 August 2012 11:59, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia <archlinux@ishpeck.net> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:50:20AM -0400, Calvin Morrison wrote:
On 16 August 2012 11:47, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia <archlinux@ishpeck.net> wrote:
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed by other peoples' silliness.
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very upset and taken leave of the list.
I don't really blame him. His goal, in reading the list, is to help those who need technical support in the stuff he works on. His goal is not to have philosophical arguments with people about software he has no intention on working on.
If we have a healthy and lively debate that he has no part in, and these debates end up dominating the list, he _should_ move. There is no harm in focusing on what matters to you.
Right, but he has even said (along with others) that "nobody is gonna change their mind, who cares about them, they're just trolls..." to that effect. Why bother fighting something so stupid, if even you admit it is stupid? It's just totally pointless Calvin
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:00:55PM -0400, Calvin Morrison wrote:
Right, but he has even said (along with others) that "nobody is gonna change their mind, who cares about them, they're just trolls..." to that effect.
Why bother fighting something so stupid, if even you admit it is stupid?
It's just totally pointless
We all tend to pepper our actual communications with some personal narrative. It takes great communication skill to extract the actual meaning from the things that humans inevitably say. What he said was: "I'm working on this software. If you need help with it, lemme know in this other place." Yes. He has feelings and those were conveyed on top of that message but it's okay. These things stop mattering eventually and the real effect is, if you need technical help from him, submit a bug report.
Am 16.08.2012 17:50, schrieb Calvin Morrison:
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very upset and taken leave of the list.
I plead guilty.
On Aug 16, 2012 5:50 PM, "Calvin Morrison" <mutantturkey@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 August 2012 11:47, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia <archlinux@ishpeck.net> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 03:15:36PM +0200, Thomas B?chler wrote:
That's not more pragmatic,
It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any
longer.
You seem to be conflating pragmatism with bigotry.
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed by other peoples' silliness.
This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very upset and taken leave of the list.
Spot on :-)
[2012-08-16 09:47:11 -0600] Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia:
Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed by other peoples' silliness.
Let's all settle for a mediocre Internet and learn to cope with it. -- Gaetan
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008), and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this mailing list, and the community too.
Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients have an option to mute a thread.
I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the list to make it quiet again.
That's not more pragmatic, that's more authoritarian, but whatever floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly the way.
dude, if i wielded the mighty banhammer, you'd have already been axed days ago! along with you're hoodlum friends! ;-) i don't think we are really talking about "we don't like yer type round here" perm bans ... more like "friendly neighborhood" temp ban (because we care!) to improve the responsibility, and above all, accountability, of incoming messages. if not a temp ban, the heuristics to rate-limit people or something ... i wish mailing lists had a sort of "mob auth" where you could "motion" for some action ... i mean, yeah, i could kill-file-or-what-have-you ... but like any other problem, they are better solved at the source. -- C Anthony
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I think we all forgot the most fundamental rule in dealing with trolls: Do *not* feed the trolls! If you found someone guilty of being a troll, don't argue. Doesn't matter how wrong he is or how stupid his opinions, he won't change his mind; you're just wasting your time and energy. If someone just posts something just for the sake of flaming and spreading FUD but no one is reacting, he's going to leave. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQLSQeAAoJENVg3RpC7ZC8RjcQAIvhL/C8Jbnrfp53N8tpow0f ItLuozBwoICDkTnoix+AmD3M6EHciwmvj4EhCbe/Tk90VDTDXzkbiAkvA09dqjvm 0PAfnZmdo0T64PKqncFL2pxd7c7/5eLL4p0o4LkShM5zVXqXJKVC1BZ57Qc7zmSR aDzzaOBEktUnLbQfbvuwSeW8u7yM33AxiIVSw+roU8PnnUEFkWrKmTOR58F7NI33 uB/BLCEmVqaW/HfuL6z5Zbkuql6eUFYMiVII4ZyjcKg5AkIRHVXb2LXgTjl1A4eK SjGPLbSsSoZxc89WlE/3sUuanpLl22jdwWDoAA7A1zrQirKB8LqvAURJqvSQcHLF EK8/EhtEg4eDjkuGSlwsYo16NOeLVzd8Ktwat703zlvcDn1mlRYj2mfhAo8e3AlY cTPridE/fVoS1q8QvYURwDQkl4mtuQ7QlvdZMvSRrXZIQnKY+L4PKcZVXVIB10jy glhr1jJtgcUKVbI7KbC319yBGAdU2QoGztbbj7/hqe/aXLyBNoX5VnT9s7BZOsrz 4Z3NQdT4ncyE7kpb2LMpz2wCxiPVumQBQd3HVOk1LY+vEHzVZOS0fcyunXfc+LQY 3fss1JBkCqn6Dqiqhk6+lkO3qZrT5iQ6D/c++JmWwXDYu4N0MprTrQ88OnXmM+kl Xx5W036v0doeMDERULmD =KNIb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
2012/8/16 Tobias Frilling <tobias@frilling-online.de>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
I think we all forgot the most fundamental rule in dealing with trolls:
Do *not* feed the trolls!
If you found someone guilty of being a troll, don't argue. Doesn't matter how wrong he is or how stupid his opinions, he won't change his mind; you're just wasting your time and energy. If someone just posts something just for the sake of flaming and spreading FUD but no one is reacting, he's going to leave. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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+1
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Tobias Frilling <tobias@frilling-online.de> wrote:
I think we all forgot the most fundamental rule in dealing with trolls:
Do *not* feed the trolls!
If you found someone guilty of being a troll, don't argue. Doesn't matter how wrong he is or how stupid his opinions, he won't change his mind; you're just wasting your time and energy. If someone just posts something just for the sake of flaming and spreading FUD but no one is reacting, he's going to leave.
Yeah, if you follow rules like that there's no need for banning; just ignore the post you think are spam, or trolling, or boring, or whatever. -- Felipe Contreras
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02:57PM +0200, fredbezies wrote:
Last threads on systemd was useless.
I disagree. In the last thread, I had to really dig for outside information to understand both sides of the argument. My research and tinkering has lead me to the following valuable conclusions: Init scripts are wrong. Sure, you can say they're adequate, that things start-up as you want them to. But that's not the same as them being right. They're gratuitously stateful, they leave you with a lot of uncertain state (can has idempotence?), they are large amounts of delicate code that only provide the illusion of stability because they've been so prolific and so heartily tested by a bounteous supply of users. systemd is also wrong. Pretty much, all anybody can say about systemd is that it isn't init scripts. This much is certainly true. It still does unnecessary parsing (place for bugs to lurk), it is highly coupled (having dependency on outside software including the kernel), and it goes to unnecessary lengths to nurture sloppy daemon developers. The arch dev's are making the right call. They can't maintain a fork of all the software that's going to be coupled to systemd. We're going to have to accept it sooner or later. systemd isn't really any better but I'm unsure if it's any worse. It's okay if we move the bugs into a place that upstream is more inclined to look at and fix. I know you guys can't be convinced to use daemontools and I'm not sure if you should at this point. Making the right decision is therefore not an option. You should just go with the wrong decision that's easiest for the movers-and-shakers to live with. I got all this from reading the several monster threads. Arch-general seems to be working for me.
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02:57PM +0200, fredbezies wrote:
Last threads on systemd was useless.
I disagree. In the last thread, I had to really dig for outside information to understand both sides of the argument. My research and tinkering has lead me to the following valuable conclusions:
Init scripts are wrong.
Sure, you can say they're adequate, that things start-up as you want them to. But that's not the same as them being right. They're gratuitously stateful, they leave you with a lot of uncertain state (can has idempotence?), they are large amounts of delicate code that only provide the illusion of stability because they've been so prolific and so heartily tested by a bounteous supply of users.
systemd is also wrong.
Pretty much, all anybody can say about systemd is that it isn't init scripts. This much is certainly true. It still does unnecessary parsing (place for bugs to lurk), it is highly coupled (having dependency on outside software including the kernel), and it goes to unnecessary lengths to nurture sloppy daemon developers.
The arch dev's are making the right call.
They can't maintain a fork of all the software that's going to be coupled to systemd. We're going to have to accept it sooner or later. systemd isn't really any better but I'm unsure if it's any worse. It's okay if we move the bugs into a place that upstream is more inclined to look at and fix.
I certainly can't disagree with Toms opinion for Arch having an easier life. Hopefully any decent software will maintain compatibility with systemd less systems as systemd is intended to be only compatible with Linux and is completely incompatible with the deeply embedded Linux systems which are gaining momentum and often only have vfork and little memory or time to read it often requiring minimised libc and shells. I'm quite confident that compatibility will persist to a similar level as BSD is so heavily used by ISP and academic institutions and even NASA and Gnome3 going Linux only came to it's senses eventually. When systemd is brought up again I think these links from arguments between redhat developers will be good to further sum up and keep this list quieter. http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152635.html http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152636.html -- _______________________________________________________________________ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) _______________________________________________________________________
participants (25)
-
Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia
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C Anthony Risinger
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Calvin Morrison
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Denis A. Altoé Falqueto
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Dennis Herbrich
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Felipe Contreras
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fredbezies
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Gaetan Bisson
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gt
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Heiko Baums
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Jeremiah Dodds
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Justin Strickland
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Kevin Chadwick
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Kyle
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Lucas Saliés Brum
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Mihamina Rakotomandimby
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Oon-Ee Ng
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Sander Jansen
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set
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Thomas Bächler
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Thomas Rand
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Tobias Frilling
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Tom Gundersen
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Tom Rand
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Vytautas Stankevičius