[arch-general] How do AUR packages get new maintainers?
Guys, I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
Hello David,
If you're logged in to the AUR, any package with an orphan status will
have an "Adopt Packages" button on its page.
2010/9/21 David C. Rankin
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
-- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
-- msn: stefan_wilkens@hotmail.com e-mail: stefanwilkens@gmail.com blog: http://www.stefanwilkens.eu/ adres: Lipperkerkstraat 14 7511 DA Enschede
On 09/21/2010 03:57 PM, Stefan Erik Wilkens wrote:
Hello David,
If you're logged in to the AUR, any package with an orphan status will have an "Adopt Packages" button on its page.
Yep, I've seen that button, but I'm not sure anybody wants a lawyer maintain any package :p I see some that I'm pretty sure I could do (RPM, yum, etc), but I am no wizard with PKGBUILDs or solving problems when sources won't build due to compiler changes, etc.. So rather than creating frustrations for everyone, I thought I would raise the orphan issue to see how to handle it. If there is somewhere to turn for help when I run into build issues I can't solve, then I wouldn't mind picking up a couple of packages so they can be kept current. What nobody needs when trying to help is to be lambasted for not being able to solve those types of problems -- I sure don't need it. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
Hello again David,
If you're motivated and willing to learn, you can always give it a
try! A fair amount of the packages in the AUR are fairly simple to
maintain (version bumping, applying a simple patch etc.) and most
related questions have already been asked, debated and answered on the
forums.
It is up to you to decide if you are capable, or willing to try and
become capable, of maintaining a package.
In short: it is good to ask, but a certain amount of "just doing"
combined with some common sense is definitely part of it :) Experiment
locally! Consider it a wiki; if people don't agree or feel a
maintainer is slacking behind -> they'll fix it themselves.
2010/9/22 David C. Rankin
On 09/21/2010 03:57 PM, Stefan Erik Wilkens wrote:
Hello David,
If you're logged in to the AUR, any package with an orphan status will have an "Adopt Packages" button on its page.
Yep, I've seen that button, but I'm not sure anybody wants a lawyer maintain any package :p I see some that I'm pretty sure I could do (RPM, yum, etc), but I am no wizard with PKGBUILDs or solving problems when sources won't build due to compiler changes, etc.. So rather than creating frustrations for everyone, I thought I would raise the orphan issue to see how to handle it.
If there is somewhere to turn for help when I run into build issues I can't solve, then I wouldn't mind picking up a couple of packages so they can be kept current. What nobody needs when trying to help is to be lambasted for not being able to solve those types of problems -- I sure don't need it.
-- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
-- msn: stefan_wilkens@hotmail.com e-mail: stefanwilkens@gmail.com blog: http://www.stefanwilkens.eu/ adres: Lipperkerkstraat 14 7511 DA Enschede
"David C. Rankin"
If there is somewhere to turn for help when I run into build issues I can't solve, then I wouldn't mind picking up a couple of packages so they can be kept current. What nobody needs when trying to help is to be lambasted for not being able to solve those types of problems -- I sure don't need it.
If you are interested in an orphaned package, just adopt it. If you encounter some insurmountable obstacle, and you cannot get help, then disown it. AUR package maintainership is a very weak commitment, as commitments go. In other words, you aren't married to your AUR packages. -- Chris
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor.
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor. EDIT: Think about your questions and try to find an answer before you
On 09/21/2010 06:17 PM, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote: post to the list.
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions?
I think that was not the OP question (considering his long time participation in the community), but something like "Is there any policy to take care of orphaned packages?" (i.e., periodic cleanups and such...). -- ============================================== Ivan Sichmann Freitas Engenharia de Computação 2009 UNICAMP http://identi.ca/ivansichmann Grupo Pró Software Livre UNICAMP - GPSL ==============================================
On 21-09-2010 23:17, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor.
And who on earth are you?
On 09/21/2010 10:07 PM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
On 21-09-2010 23:17, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor.
And who on earth are you? Well I'm pyther and I've been around since '05. You?
It is extremely annoying to see these elementary and many times unrelated emails on this list. David has had a history of not bothering to do simple searches to find answers to his questions. Arch is a do-it-yourself type of distro. I don't mind helping folks when they run into problems, but they have to show that they have made some attempt to help themselves. Just having a general idea of how the AUR works would have answered David's question. If you use arch you should be able to use the wiki, man pages, and google, at the minimum.
On 22-09-2010 15:21, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
On 09/21/2010 10:07 PM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
On 21-09-2010 23:17, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor.
And who on earth are you? Well I'm pyther and I've been around since '05. You?
As I thought.. You are no one special. Now please, moderate your speech since you actually do not dictate what goes or not on this mailing list. Neither having that power would give you the right to be offensive and rude. Also make a point of checking your own answers when replying. Because all the show you put ends up in a link to a wiki page that actually doesn't answer the initial question.
On 09/21/2010 09:07 PM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
On 21-09-2010 23:17, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor.
And who on earth are you?
This is the whole problem that makes Arch so gd frustrating to work with. I ask a simple question and get nothing back but - dumbass RTFM. C'mon, WTF is a community mailing list for if not to ask questions about a distribution and how package assignment is handled. "Think before you type" works both ways. Yes, if there is an answer in the wiki that tells you what to do when you find orphaned packages in AUR - I should have found it. Regardless of whether it is there or whether it was overlooked, when somebody asks something on the list in an attempt to help Arch -- for God sake, don't kick them in the teeth. Common courtesy and civility goes a long way in life. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
On 22/09/10 18:44, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 09/21/2010 09:07 PM, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
On 21-09-2010 23:17, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor.
And who on earth are you?
This is the whole problem that makes Arch so gd frustrating to work with. I ask a simple question and get nothing back but - dumbass RTFM. C'mon, WTF is a community mailing list for if not to ask questions about a distribution and how package assignment is handled.
"Think before you type" works both ways. Yes, if there is an answer in the wiki that tells you what to do when you find orphaned packages in AUR - I should have found it. Regardless of whether it is there or whether it was overlooked, when somebody asks something on the list in an attempt to help Arch -- for God sake, don't kick them in the teeth.
Common courtesy and civility goes a long way in life.
don't let trolls get the best of you.
David, I will try to have some courtesy to you this time. I usually read the mailing list, I don't reply it at all (just when I need to say my opinion) but, trust me, I read at least 70% of the mails of the list... From that 70% that I've read, I see, that you ask _anything_ on the list, so I don't think that you really did a minor research, or your research techniques are wrong, or you pretend that we are here to reply you 24/7. Maybe in this little case, the question that you did, is not detailed on the wiki as you expected, but then let me ask you a question, did you updated the wiki when you didn't found the information and then you got a reply from the list? .. I think no. So don't complain about the lack of the information on the wiki. Wanna an advice? try to don't ask _anything_ and waste the time of the people who usually reply you. Instead, try to research a little more, and then, after hours (yes hours) of researching, *ask*, and eventually the number of questions that you do on this list will decrease and probably you get better replies than a classic RTFM. I don't consider myself as a very-smart-guy-so-i-dont-ask .. but I try to don't ask a lot. It's just my opinion, btw. Good luck. -- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Arch Linux Developer / Trusted User Linux Counter: #359909 http://www.angvp.com
On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 15:01 -0300, Ángel Velásquez wrote:
David,
I will try to have some courtesy to you this time.
I usually read the mailing list, I don't reply it at all (just when I need to say my opinion) but, trust me, I read at least 70% of the mails of the list... From that 70% that I've read, I see, that you ask _anything_ on the list, so I don't think that you really did a minor research, or your research techniques are wrong, or you pretend that we are here to reply you 24/7.
Maybe in this little case, the question that you did, is not detailed on the wiki as you expected, but then let me ask you a question, did you updated the wiki when you didn't found the information and then you got a reply from the list? .. I think no. So don't complain about the lack of the information on the wiki.
Wanna an advice? try to don't ask _anything_ and waste the time of the people who usually reply you. Instead, try to research a little more, and then, after hours (yes hours) of researching, *ask*, and eventually the number of questions that you do on this list will decrease and probably you get better replies than a classic RTFM. I don't consider myself as a very-smart-guy-so-i-dont-ask .. but I try to don't ask a lot.
It's just my opinion, btw. Good luck.
Similar opinion here. While you (David) are obviously not dumb, the sheer number of emails and tone of them seem to indicate a certain lack of prior searching. Or perhaps a lack of creativity in searching. In any case, the impression your question gives is of this sort of process:- 1. Think about something. 2. Realize you're not sure how to do it. 3. Email an initial question to the list. 4. While waiting, try a few things on your own. 5. If not answered, add more comments in a reply to your own message. Preferably, step 3 should be removed and 'do google/wiki/forum/ML search' added to step 4. This would decrease your message ratio AND increase the usefulness of your messages (hence the usefulness of the ML archive).
On 09/21/2010 05:17 PM, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor.
Case in point.... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
On 09/21/2010 05:17 PM, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor.
OK, now I have read the entire document. What part of it are you relying on to answer my original question? The only mention of 'orphan' in the entire document is the following -- Q: Foo in AUR is outdated; what do I do? A: For starters, you can flag packages out-of-date. If it stays out-of-date for an extended amount of time, the best thing to do is email the maintainer. If there is no response from the maintainer, *you could mail to the aur-general mailing list* to have a TU orphan the PKGBUILD if you're willing to maintain it yourself. emphasis between the '*'s is mine. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
On 09/22/2010 01:52 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 09/21/2010 05:17 PM, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
On 09/21/2010 04:53 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
I've seen recent "Request to Ophan package XYZ" posts, and I've found some fairly large AUR packages that are orphaned (like RPM5). But, how do AUR packages get new maintainers? Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on?
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR
Really dude? You've been using arch for how long and still have these elementary questions? Think about you questions and try to find answer before you post to the list. Alternatively hire an arch tutor.
OK, now I have read the entire document. What part of it are you relying on to answer my original question? The only mention of 'orphan' in the entire document is the following --
Q: Foo in AUR is outdated; what do I do? A: For starters, you can flag packages out-of-date. If it stays out-of-date for an extended amount of time, the best thing to do is email the maintainer. If there is no response from the maintainer, *you could mail to the aur-general mailing list* to have a TU orphan the PKGBUILD if you're willing to maintain it yourself.
emphasis between the '*'s is mine.
Well I think you picked out the line. "if there is no response from the maintainer, you could mail to the aur-general mailing list to have a TU orphan the PKGBUILD *if you're willing to maintain it yourself.*" (I added the emphasis) An user with basic knowledge of the AUR should be able to figure out that he/she would be able to maintian an orphaned package. Now I might be able to see some difficulty in interpreting this if you are a non-native speaker. However, since you are a Texan lawyer, I would imagine that you speak fluent English. Also, the section 'Sharing PKGBUILDs in UNSUPPORTED' and 'Submitting Packages to AUR' would help you understand how the AUR works.
Does somebody monitor the orphans and then divvy them out among those with write privileges in AUR or does somebody have to say I'll take package X on? That statement, at least to me, would indicate that you are not familiar with how the AUR works and operates. Therefore, that wiki article in general would have given you some very good, fundamental, knowledge.
if you had asked "How can I maintained an orphan package?" then it would be a different story.
What about the aur-general mailing-list ?
Yeah, when I got started into learning package maintenance in Arch, I recall reading the wiki pages for AUR and ABS (the Arch Build System). Sorry, I forget the exact links but the ABS stuff explains PKGBUILDs really well and when I combined that with the AUR material, I felt I was pretty will informed to start digging in and start playing around with some PKGBUILDs I was interested in and then I took on a couple packages that I was personally interested in maintaining. I also have download some other packages that are only in AUR and I built them on my own system in a /var/abs/local path so that also gave me more self learned experience with packages and how these things should be built. Probably the area needing most attention paid to is the standards that should be followed when building new PKGBUILDs. Of course, like most of us programmers tend to do, we can just copy other PKGBUILDS and work from them; just hope they are well behaved or we would be creating more bad packages from other bad ones <smile>. But then there's the .proto PKGBUILDs and install scripts that come with the ABS package (if I remember right) that are good starters too. Anyway, I rambled on here for a long time and probably caused even more confusion but hopefully, this was of some value.
On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 20:23, Steve Holmes
Yeah, when I got started into learning package maintenance in Arch, I recall reading the wiki pages for AUR and ABS (the Arch Build System). Sorry, I forget the exact links but the ABS stuff explains PKGBUILDs really well and when I combined that with the AUR material, I felt I was pretty will informed to start digging in and start playing around with some PKGBUILDs I was interested in and then I took on a couple packages that I was personally interested in maintaining. I also have download some other packages that are only in AUR and I built them on my own system in a /var/abs/local path so that also gave me more self learned experience with packages and how these things should be built. Probably the area needing most attention paid to is the standards that should be followed when building new PKGBUILDs. Of course, like most of us programmers tend to do, we can just copy other PKGBUILDS and work from them; just hope they are well behaved or we would be creating more bad packages from other bad ones <smile>. But then there's the .proto PKGBUILDs and install scripts that come with the ABS package (if I remember right) that are good starters too.
Anyway, I rambled on here for a long time and probably caused even more confusion but hopefully, this was of some value.
Like Steve, I used the same method of learning about PKGBUILDS, ABS, and the AUR. One thing which made me determined to figure it out, without additional help, was the possibility of responses similar to what David seems to incur. Because there are times when my dementia (this is not a joke) keeps me from finding answers that are right in front of my face and I just can't put it all together. One question to ask one's self comes from this premise; I'm a busy developer or programmer and I don't like all the BS on my mailing list so I'm going to ride hard on someone who asks what I think are silly questions when they could find out for themselves. The flip side is, when you have a question about a legal problem will you spend hours researching it, or call a lawyer. What if the lawyer tells you to read the wiki, STFW, or RTFM. Since lawyers tend to be fairly busy in today's world, or so it seems, maybe he feels he can get a quick hint, get back to work, then have some context to work with when he does his research later. Another analogy would be when you've got a fever of 103 deg F (39.4 deg C) and the doctor tells you to take 2 aspirin, hands you a medical journal to read, and see if you can reach me in the morning. I agree useless noise on the mailing list is aggravating. What's more aggravating is after several responses (positive or negative) a 20 - now 21- barrage of responses. Many of which just continue to elicit responses which are nothing but some form of regurgitation of what's gone before. As a suggestion for those of you who don't care for David's question, don't open his posts and read them. It might make for a more civil world. I also have a short quick fuse and tend to put out responses to attacks as a personal affront. I'll break my machine and have to reinstall the whole system before I ask a question about how to fix anything, even if it's cutting my nose off to spite my face. One would hope this is enough to end the BS, it's getting tiring. Myra Nelson -- Life's fun when your sick and psychotic!
On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 22:41 -0500, Myra Nelson wrote:
One would hope this is enough to end the BS, it's getting tiring.
Myra Nelson
Did you just compare the service of highly-paid lawyers and doctors with voluntary time on the Arch ML? =) My observation is that most of the responses so far are based on the poster's history rather than the particular question asked, rightly or wrongly.
2010/9/23 Ng Oon-Ee
On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 22:41 -0500, Myra Nelson wrote:
One would hope this is enough to end the BS, it's getting tiring.
Myra Nelson
Did you just compare the service of highly-paid lawyers and doctors with voluntary time on the Arch ML? =)
My observation is that most of the responses so far are based on the poster's history rather than the particular question asked, rightly or wrongly.
No, I was comparing the expertise. I consider this list to be populated with individuals with a lot of expertise in the field of programming. That is what makes it worth reading daily. Also the wiki is excellent and being improved all the time. I mention the wiki due to the tremendous improvement in that area over the last 3 or 4 years. In the past I've had wiki pages I had to study for several hours and work through more than two or three times to get it right. However, after 10 knock downs, I think it gets a little long winded and tiresome to keep at it. Eventually it serves no purpose and in some cases leads to extraneous side tracks (ie wiki pages removed most recently) that don't serve the overall discussion; IMHO. My other point was, it might be simpler to point out where this information can be found without the "really dudes's" and "who are you's" etc. Part of the problem, from both sides is a culture clash, one that's hard to reconcile and too long to debate here and now. My view comes from having the opinion that if I training you to do something and I have to tell you more than twice how to do it, I don't need you. Somewhere along the line I discovered not all people could grasp what I said the way I said it. I knew what I was doing and how it should be done, training logging engineers in the oilfield, and just couldn't understand why no one could get it. It's friggin easy. Might it be worthwhile to link to ESR's "How to ask questions the smart way" or link to it in a wiki page. At some point the discussions seem to become "bikeshed". I would like to thank you for the courteous reply. Myra -- Life's fun when your sick and psychotic!
participants (12)
-
Christopher Brannon
-
David C. Rankin
-
Ivan S. Freitas
-
Mario Figueiredo
-
Matthew Gyurgyik
-
Myra Nelson
-
Nathan Wayde
-
Ng Oon-Ee
-
solsTiCe d'Hiver
-
Stefan Erik Wilkens
-
Steve Holmes
-
Ángel Velásquez