[arch-general] Arch mailing list for subjective discussions
Hallo, IMO the moderated Arch general list became a good list for technically issues and for briefly and succinctly objective discussions. This shouldn't change. First I didn't like it, but now I can see the advantages of such a list. What IMO is missing for Arch Linux is a separated mailing list for longer, subjective discussions. I'm aware that this is possible using the forums, but for my taste a mailing list is more comfortable to use. I wonder if there's an interest for such a mailing list and if somebody has got the knowledge and is willing to set up such a mailing list. The international Debian mailing list is free for longer, subjective discussions, but there anyway is a separated list, for completely off topic discussions. http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic There's no need to have a list for absolutely OT discussions for Arch Linux, as there is for Debian, but perhaps I'm not the only one who does like to get an Arch Linux mailing list for longer, subjective discussions. This comes into my mind, when I read a statement about the policy of Mint, thread: "Fully wroking GTK3(+GTK2) theme for Gnome 3.8?" E.g. desktop environments require sometimes discussions that IMO don't belong to Arch general, but there perhaps is the need to compare notes. What do you think about an additional mailing list for discussions that are OT for Arch generell? Regards, Ralf
2013/5/18 Ralf Mardorf
This comes into my mind, when I read a statement about the policy of Mint, thread: "Fully wroking GTK3(+GTK2) theme for Gnome 3.8?"
E.g. desktop environments require sometimes discussions that IMO don't belong to Arch general, but there perhaps is the need to compare notes.
Hi Ralf, IMHO, the example you give explains why using the forum would be more appropriate. Long technical discussions are of course interesting, provided you care about the topic, which is not always the case. What this means is that you might start receiving tens of emails that you really have no interest in. You might say "you're not forced to join the ML", but I think it's not an option since some topics will be of interest to me for sure and I would like to follow those. On the other side, a forum allows you to focus on the discussions you really care about, and you can just ignore the irrelevant threads. Nevertheless, I have to agree that a ML is more convenient for some users, and giving it a try couldn't hurt... Regards, Joan
On Sat, 2013-05-18 at 20:34 +0200, Joan Rieu wrote:
Long technical discussions are of course interesting, provided you care about the topic, which is not always the case.
Hi Joan, it's nearly impossible to discuss something and to stay objective and straight to the topic, this only is possible, if everybody has got the same opinion and when discussions are completely about technical issues. The way Arch general is moderated at the moment does provide the advantage, that developers can focus important technical issues. The developers make the distro and that is ok, I don't want the right to say for users. What's IMO missing is a place for users, where we can share opinions and workarounds to customize our Arch Linux or even ask dumb question. I neither know, if there is an interest for a user mailing list by many Arch users, nor how to set up a list, assumed there should be an interest. Off-list I didn't get much mails, but until now at least one mail and the reply is pro an user mailing list. This thread shouldn't become a discussion on the list, I only want to know if there are more users interested and if so, I hope somebody has got the ability to set up a list. So, to keep the traffic small for the list, I prefer to reply off-list, assumed more people should reply, however it would be nice, if people who want a user mailing list are allowed to answer to the list. Regards, Ralf
On Sat, 18 May 2013 18:27:03 +0200 Ralf Mardorf
Hallo,
IMO the moderated Arch general list became a good list for technically issues and for briefly and succinctly objective discussions. This shouldn't change. First I didn't like it, but now I can see the advantages of such a list.
What IMO is missing for Arch Linux is a separated mailing list for longer, subjective discussions. I'm aware that this is possible using the forums, but for my taste a mailing list is more comfortable to use.
Even more efficient and comfortable, a usenet newsgroup. I /really/ don't like the clunky sluggish and bloated things that web forums are. Mailing lists are better, but the combination of a newsgroup with a good newsreader program (or even with a combined email+usenet client such as 'Thunderbird' or 'Claws Mail') is still more convenient. The Arch depositories include a good selection of usenet software.
I wonder if there's an interest for such a mailing list and if somebody has got the knowledge and is willing to set up such a mailing list.
[...] The infrastructure for newsgroups is very well established (it predates the internet, but is of course accessed via the internet now). Unless 'moderation' is required, no particular effort or commitment is required from anyone once a new newsgroup has been 'created'. Participants do have to set up their software to 'subscribe' to the new newsgroup, but I don't think any Arch users would be daunted by that. Some ISPs have ceased to include a usenet service, but there are plenty of public news-servers to choose from, some of them free of charge, and others very economical. Usenet is 'plain text only' (apart from the 'binary groups' which are really something entirely different) and inherently 'off-line', just as email is (although you can use 'on-line mode' if you want to).
What do you think about an additional mailing list for discussions that are OT for Arch generell?
Regards, Ralf
I'd support a proposal for a new newsgroup, preferably in the alt.os.linux hierarchy where there are already several distro-specific groups. I think some of the things currently discussed in Arch web forums would benefit from being moved into newsgroups; discussion of the wonderful web browser 'dwb' springs to mind, currently happening in the 'Community Contributions' web forum and almost impossible to research. -- -- ^^^^^^^^^^ -- Whiskers -- ~~~~~~~~~~
On 05/18/2013 08:34 PM, Joan Rieu wrote:
2013/5/18 Ralf Mardorf
This comes into my mind, when I read a statement about the policy of Mint, thread: "Fully wroking GTK3(+GTK2) theme for Gnome 3.8?"
E.g. desktop environments require sometimes discussions that IMO don't belong to Arch general, but there perhaps is the need to compare notes.
Hi Ralf,
IMHO, the example you give explains why using the forum would be more appropriate.
Long technical discussions are of course interesting, provided you care about the topic, which is not always the case. What this means is that you might start receiving tens of emails that you really have no interest in. You might say "you're not forced to join the ML", but I think it's not an option since some topics will be of interest to me for sure and I would like to follow those.
There are two solutions to this: a) Use a mail reader which can actually handle a larger mail volume more sanely. (Filters, or a mail reader which can "kill" threads so that you don't receive future replies on a given thread, etc.) b) Use Gmane.org to give you an NNTP interface to mailing lists and use a news reader -- high-volume lists is what NTTP and news readers were meant for. (I'm using Thunderbird.) It's trivial to set up and effortlessly lets you follow along in lots and lots of mailing lists without having to set up any mail client magic.
On the other side, a forum allows you to focus on the discussions you really care about, and you can just ignore the irrelevant threads.
You still have to actively go to the specific Arch forums to keep up with replies, etc. There's no unified "show me everything new in all the forums I'm a member of" page where I can go to keep up. That's a much bigger problem for many mail-oriented users than setting up a filter or two. Regards,
On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 5:25 AM, Bardur Arantsson
There are two solutions to this:
a) Use a mail reader which can actually handle a larger mail volume more sanely. (Filters, or a mail reader which can "kill" threads so that you don't receive future replies on a given thread, etc.)
+1
You still have to actively go to the specific Arch forums to keep up with replies, etc. There's no unified "show me everything new in all the forums I'm a member of" page where I can go to keep up.
You can subscribe to rss feeds of these forums and your rss reader will then show you "everything new in all the forums I'm a member of". You can subscribe to individual threads, so you shouldn't miss replies - you'll get an e-mail notification.
On 05/19/2013 10:44 AM, Karol Blazewicz wrote:
You still have to actively go to the specific Arch forums to keep up with replies, etc. There's no unified "show me everything new in all the forums I'm a member of" page where I can go to keep up.
You can subscribe to rss feeds of these forums and your rss reader will then show you "everything new in all the forums I'm a member of".
Good point, but that needs the forum to support it(*) and leads to a proliferation of RSS feeds. IME feed readers aren't as good as handling large numbers of subscriptions as news readers, so I always prefer the NTTP way :).
You can subscribe to individual threads, so you shouldn't miss replies - you'll get an e-mail notification.
IME this is even more annoying -- you usually can't reply directly to such emails and it's often a multistep process to be able to reply (requiring login, and so forth). Regards,
On Sun, 2013-05-19 at 05:25 +0200, Bardur Arantsson wrote:
a) Use a mail reader which can actually handle a larger mail volume more sanely. (Filters, or a mail reader which can "kill" threads so that you don't receive future replies on a given thread, etc.)
b) Use Gmane.org to give you an NNTP interface to mailing lists and use a news reader -- high-volume lists is what NTTP and news readers were meant for. (I'm using Thunderbird.) It's trivial to set up and effortlessly lets you follow along in lots and lots of mailing lists without having to set up any mail client magic.
Ok, this time I won't reply off-list. Remember the systemd flame war. Some discussions simply don't belong to Arch general. Even some questions don't belong to this list, e.g. "How can I use dd to backup my Windows?", "Can anybody recommend a good USB coffee cup warming plate?". A _user_ mailing list for similar questions and subjective discussions _must_ be separated from Arch general.
On the other side, a forum allows you to focus on the discussions you really care about, and you can just ignore the irrelevant threads.
You still have to actively go to the specific Arch forums to keep up with replies, etc. There's no unified "show me everything new in all the forums I'm a member of" page where I can go to keep up.
That's a much bigger problem for many mail-oriented users than setting up a filter or two.
Setting up filters is a good idea, when having a _user_ list with threads that don't belong to Arch general. When using a forum, you can't easily post using a MUA, you need to use the online form. For good reasons Arch general is a moderated list. If you take a look at the archive, you can see the advantage. The disadvantage is, that for dumb questions a user list is missing, but users sometimes need to ask dumb questions, take a look at e.g. Ubuntu or Debian mailing lists. Regards, Ralf
On Sat, 18 May 2013 21:57:03 +0530, Ralf Mardorf
What IMO is missing for Arch Linux is a separated mailing list for longer, subjective discussions. I'm aware that this is possible using the forums, but for my taste a mailing list is more comfortable to use.
i've thought about this several times, but the thought that's always stopped me is fragmentation. there's already (at least) two mailing lists, the forums, and of course the wiki to research if one is looking to solve a particular problem. adding another mailing list, another archive to search, wouldn't make things easier. apart from that, my personal preference would be a _slightly_ more "chatty" mailing list, as i was used to from openSUSE, per example. the arch-general list feels more like an extension of the bug tracker, really. anything except the bare minimum tech. information is frowned upon, and unless you're part of a small core group of members, even technical questions that haven't already been answered in the wiki are likely to be answered with, "...do your own research and don't waste everybody's time." i also prefer the mailing list or newsgroup format, but for those who do use a graphical browser at times, there's a G+ group with several thousands of members, managed quite tightly (but not too tight): https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/113935870359973712582 i'm still not convinced that creating another mailing list would be a good idea overall (fragmentation). but if the general consensus here should be that it would be a good thing, i have the server space and know how to manage one. -- phani.
On 2013-05-19, Bardur Arantsson
On 05/19/2013 10:44 AM, Karol Blazewicz wrote:
You can subscribe to rss feeds of these forums and your rss reader will then show you "everything new in all the forums I'm a member of".
... feed readers aren't as good as handling large numbers of subscriptions as news readers, so I always prefer the NTTP way
Many of the [Squeezebox forums](http://forums.slimdevices.com/) are mirrored with a Mailman list, which I access with slrn through gmane.org. There's so much noise on there that using a newsreader is the *only* way I can keep up with any topics. It would be nice to have an email option with the Arch Forums, but I don't know if there's any easy way to extend FluxBB like that.
participants (7)
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Bardur Arantsson
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Joan Rieu
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Karol Blazewicz
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phani
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Ralf Mardorf
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satisficer
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Whiskers