[arch-general] Installation_Guide - fix concerning bootloader config reference
Guys, One place the Installation_Guide could be improved is regarding the bootloader install and config. Currently the "Configure system" section has a circular-reference back to "Install a bootloader" section. It reads: ------------------------------------------------- Install a bootloader GRUB For BIOS: # pacstrap /mnt grub-bios <snip> Configure system ... Configure the bootloader: refer back to the appropriate article from the bootloader installation section. ------------------------------------------------- Above, the reference back 'to the appropriate article from the bootloader installation section' sends the reader back to an area with NO additional information. It would be far better to simply refer the reader to: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide#Configure_the_bootlo... or just include the bootloader config steps from Beginners_Guide. Bolding "Configure the bootloader:" would also help. That will emphasize the fact that grub2 is not configured at this point and the user needs to complete grub-install and grub-mkconfig before rebooting. Especially for user seeing grub2 for the first time with an install from the new 2012 media. That's just a suggestion for readability. Thanks. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
According to beginner's guide, grub-install /dev/sda <cr> is the next command and mk-grubconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg <cr> is the next command after that. On Sun, 5 Aug 2012, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
One place the Installation_Guide could be improved is regarding the bootloader install and config. Currently the "Configure system" section has a circular-reference back to "Install a bootloader" section. It reads:
------------------------------------------------- Install a bootloader GRUB
For BIOS:
# pacstrap /mnt grub-bios
<snip>
Configure system ...
Configure the bootloader: refer back to the appropriate article from the bootloader installation section. -------------------------------------------------
Above, the reference back 'to the appropriate article from the bootloader installation section' sends the reader back to an area with NO additional information. It would be far better to simply refer the reader to:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide#Configure_the_bootlo...
or just include the bootloader config steps from Beginners_Guide. Bolding "Configure the bootloader:" would also help.
That will emphasize the fact that grub2 is not configured at this point and the user needs to complete grub-install and grub-mkconfig before rebooting. Especially for user seeing grub2 for the first time with an install from the new 2012 media.
That's just a suggestion for readability. Thanks.
Support your local church or synagogue, worship at Bank Of America! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
On 08/05/2012 06:10 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
According to beginner's guide, grub-install /dev/sda <cr> is the next command and mk-grubconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg <cr> is the next command after that.
That is the whole point... The Install_Guide does not refer you to the Beginners_Guide, currently it refers you up several paragraphs that does no good. That is why I suggested a link to the Beginners_Guide. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 08:37:39PM -0500, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 08/05/2012 06:10 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
According to beginner's guide, grub-install /dev/sda <cr> is the next command and mk-grubconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg <cr> is the next command after that.
That is the whole point... The Install_Guide does not refer you to the Beginners_Guide, currently it refers you up several paragraphs that does no good. That is why I suggested a link to the Beginners_Guide.
-- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
In my opinion the beginners guide is a mess, and should be cleaned up by pointing to the actual pages about the stuff that it is refering to and only include a few things about outliars. If you want to know how to install grub2 on a new install, why go to the beginners guide when you can go straight to the grub2 page which has much more information about grub2 than what the beginners guide describes -- Daniel Wallace Archlinux Trusted User (gtmanfred) Georgia Institute of Technology
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 08/05/2012 08:41 PM, Daniel Wallace wrote:
In my opinion the beginners guide is a mess, and should be cleaned up by pointing to the actual pages about the stuff that it is refering to and only include a few things about outliars. If you want to know how to install grub2 on a new install, why go to the beginners guide when you can go straight to the grub2 page which has much more information about grub2 than what the beginners guide describes
I noticed that too. Also, if you just follow the beginners guide without using the grub2 page, you end up installing grub2 wrong because the beginners guide omits the --target flag for grub-install. There should be links to: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Grub2#Install_to_440-byte_MBR_boot_code... for the most common install. Instead the beginners_guide just says to: grub-install /dev/sda which according to the grub2 wiki will result in the grub2 error on: "source_dir doesn't exist" I went ahead and updated the Beginners_Guide Configure the Bootloader section to point to the Grub2 wiki and added the additional grub-install flags recommended in the Grub2 page. - -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAgQzcACgkQZMpuZ8CyrcgoxACfU+lmInwdVURtGSjhHgxFM2Vr SqsAn2v887inIsu+wil6kHV4Qc5ksbuy =zzdk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 06-08-2012 23:20, David C. Rankin wrote:
I noticed that too. Also, if you just follow the beginners guide without using the grub2 page, you end up installing grub2 wrong because the beginners guide omits the --target flag for grub-install. There should be links to:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Grub2#Install_to_440-byte_MBR_boot_code...
for the most common install. Instead the beginners_guide just says to:
grub-install /dev/sda
which according to the grub2 wiki will result in the grub2 error on:
"source_dir doesn't exist"
After reading the wiki and the man page I did use only 'grub-install /dev/sda' and it worked without any problems for the 3 systems that I have converted to use grub2. As I see it --target should not be needed if grub is going to run from the same machine/architecture it was installed with. The man page says: --target=TARGET install GRUB for TARGET platform [default=current] If grub can't decide correctly on what is the current platform, it sounds like a bug with grub and it should be reported upstream so it can be fixed. -- Mauro Santos
Another problem documented is that cfdisk makes a system incompatible for grub2 installation since grub2 expects everything to start at sector 2048 and cfdisk starts everything at sector 63. On Tue, 7 Aug 2012, Mauro Santos wrote:
On 06-08-2012 23:20, David C. Rankin wrote:
I noticed that too. Also, if you just follow the beginners guide without using the grub2 page, you end up installing grub2 wrong because the beginners guide omits the --target flag for grub-install. There should be links to:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Grub2#Install_to_440-byte_MBR_boot_code...
for the most common install. Instead the beginners_guide just says to:
grub-install /dev/sda
which according to the grub2 wiki will result in the grub2 error on:
"source_dir doesn't exist"
After reading the wiki and the man page I did use only 'grub-install /dev/sda' and it worked without any problems for the 3 systems that I have converted to use grub2.
As I see it --target should not be needed if grub is going to run from the same machine/architecture it was installed with. The man page says:
--target=TARGET install GRUB for TARGET platform [default=current]
If grub can't decide correctly on what is the current platform, it sounds like a bug with grub and it should be reported upstream so it can be fixed.
Support your local church or synagogue, worship at Bank Of America! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
On 08/07/2012 06:51 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
Another problem documented is that cfdisk makes a system incompatible for grub2 installation since grub2 expects everything to start at sector 2048 and cfdisk starts everything at sector 63.
Hmm..., I don't know if that bothered grub2. I used cfdisk, and then installed grub2. I don't recall a specific error about sectors. For some reason, I think I recall having to run grub-install more than once. What error would you expect if that was causing a problem? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:14:08PM -0500, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 08/07/2012 06:51 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
Another problem documented is that cfdisk makes a system incompatible for grub2 installation since grub2 expects everything to start at sector 2048 and cfdisk starts everything at sector 63.
Hmm...,
I don't know if that bothered grub2. I used cfdisk, and then installed grub2. I don't recall a specific error about sectors. For some reason, I think I recall having to run grub-install more than once. What error would you expect if that was causing a problem?
-- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
better to use fdisk, gdisk, or parted for partitioning -- Daniel Wallace Archlinux Trusted User (gtmanfred) Georgia Institute of Technology
The whole point is, if you're reading the install guide you don't need any information in the beginners guide. At the very beginning of each of those guides the intended audiences are described. On Sun, 5 Aug 2012, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 08/05/2012 06:10 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
According to beginner's guide, grub-install /dev/sda <cr> is the next command and mk-grubconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg <cr> is the next command after that.
That is the whole point... The Install_Guide does not refer you to the Beginners_Guide, currently it refers you up several paragraphs that does no good. That is why I suggested a link to the Beginners_Guide.
Support your local church or synagogue, worship at Bank Of America! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
On 08/05/2012 11:02 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
The whole point is, if you're reading the install guide you don't need any information in the beginners guide. At the very beginning of each of those guides the intended audiences are described.
I get that, and I do appreciate the concise nature of the install_guide. On the other hand, what percentage of users are already grub2 experts? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 3:56 AM, David C. Rankin <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
On 08/05/2012 11:02 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
The whole point is, if you're reading the install guide you don't need any information in the beginners guide. At the very beginning of each of those guides the intended audiences are described.
I get that, and I do appreciate the concise nature of the install_guide. On the other hand, what percentage of users are already grub2 experts?
The installation guide is for those who know what they're doing. That INCLUDES (IMHO) the knowledge that grub2 exists and that it has its own wiki page. Conciseness is more important for this page than trying to include things some people may not know.
On 08/09/2012 08:43 PM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 3:56 AM, David C. Rankin <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
On 08/05/2012 11:02 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
The whole point is, if you're reading the install guide you don't need any information in the beginners guide. At the very beginning of each of those guides the intended audiences are described.
I get that, and I do appreciate the concise nature of the install_guide. On the other hand, what percentage of users are already grub2 experts?
The installation guide is for those who know what they're doing. That INCLUDES (IMHO) the knowledge that grub2 exists and that it has its own wiki page. Conciseness is more important for this page than trying to include things some people may not know.
I agree with all you said. I guess I just look at it from the standpoint of "What would someone who wants to try Arch need to make it work, and how could it be made easier?" The conciseness is great, but the easier it is to follow the trail, the better. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:42 AM, David C. Rankin <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
On 08/09/2012 08:43 PM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 3:56 AM, David C. Rankin <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
On 08/05/2012 11:02 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
The whole point is, if you're reading the install guide you don't need any information in the beginners guide. At the very beginning of each of those guides the intended audiences are described.
I get that, and I do appreciate the concise nature of the install_guide. On the other hand, what percentage of users are already grub2 experts?
The installation guide is for those who know what they're doing. That INCLUDES (IMHO) the knowledge that grub2 exists and that it has its own wiki page. Conciseness is more important for this page than trying to include things some people may not know.
I agree with all you said. I guess I just look at it from the standpoint of "What would someone who wants to try Arch need to make it work, and how could it be made easier?" The conciseness is great, but the easier it is to follow the trail, the better.
By adding a link to the grub2 wiki =)
On 08/09/2012 10:42 PM, David C. Rankin wrote: [putolin]
but the easier it is to follow the trail, the better.
That's what bread crumbs are for
On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 14:56:39 -0500 "David C. Rankin" <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
On 08/05/2012 11:02 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
The whole point is, if you're reading the install guide you don't need any information in the beginners guide. At the very beginning of each of those guides the intended audiences are described.
I get that, and I do appreciate the concise nature of the install_guide. On the other hand, what percentage of users are already grub2 experts?
Well, you don't have to be an expert in bootloaders to use them these days. For example, I don't even care about the format of syslinux.cfg, yet I installed syslinux on my Arch router w/o any problems. You have to know about MBR, initramfs and kernel image, but that's about it. On the other hand, if someone wants to boot from an encrypted LVM volume with UEFI and GPT -- either learn or use Fedora... -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
participants (7)
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Baho Utot
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Daniel Wallace
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David C. Rankin
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Jude DaShiell
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Leonid Isaev
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Mauro Santos
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Oon-Ee Ng