Probably many of you know about the acquisition of 882 of Novell's patents by a Microsoft organized consortium [1]. What you may not know is that, as Novell was part of OIN (Open Invention Network), those that join OIN *before* the closing date for the acquisition (about january 23) will be protected from any harassment regarding these patents. This [2] Groklaw's article explains it in more detail. It works because the patents are granted perpetually to OIN members that have jointed before the closing date, even in the case of a sell (like occurred in this case). You don't need to have patents or be a company to join (for free) OIN. Any project (like Arch Linux), or even an individual can do it. I understand that *if* MS will use them, it'll be with the big guys (or at least some company). Probably they will prefer to use the patents just for FUD. But OTOH we have nothing to loose (not even patents :-), and it's free. [1] http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20101124103213... [2] http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101206205654916 Armando
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Armando M. Baratti < ambaratti.listas@gmail.com> wrote:
What you may not know is that, as Novell was part of OIN (Open Invention Network), those that join OIN *before* the closing date for the acquisition (about january 23) will be protected from any harassment regarding these patents. This [2] Groklaw's article explains it in more detail.
It works because the patents are granted perpetually to OIN members that have jointed before the closing date, even in the case of a sell (like occurred in this case).
You don't need to have patents or be a company to join (for free) OIN. Any project (like Arch Linux), or even an individual can do it.
I could be totally wrong here, but as far as I know "Arch Linux" doesn't actually exist as a legal entity. I haven't had time to read the linked articles, but if this is the case would it even be possible for us to join the OIN? --Kaiting. -- Kiwis and Limes: http://kaitocracy.blogspot.com/
On 08.12.2010 23:04, Kaiting Chen wrote:
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Armando M. Baratti < ambaratti.listas@gmail.com> wrote:
What you may not know is that, as Novell was part of OIN (Open Invention Network), those that join OIN *before* the closing date for the acquisition (about january 23) will be protected from any harassment regarding these patents. This [2] Groklaw's article explains it in more detail.
It works because the patents are granted perpetually to OIN members that have jointed before the closing date, even in the case of a sell (like occurred in this case).
You don't need to have patents or be a company to join (for free) OIN. Any project (like Arch Linux), or even an individual can do it.
I could be totally wrong here, but as far as I know "Arch Linux" doesn't actually exist as a legal entity. I haven't had time to read the linked articles, but if this is the case would it even be possible for us to join the OIN? --Kaiting.
I was contacted about my distro (live.linux-gamers.net) by OIN and now a member now. Apparently it works.
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Sven-Hendrik Haase
I could be totally wrong here, but as far as I know "Arch Linux" doesn't actually exist as a legal entity. I haven't had time to read the linked articles, but if this is the case would it even be possible for us to join the OIN? --Kaiting.
I was contacted about my distro (live.linux-gamers.net) by OIN and now a member now. Apparently it works.
Disregard my mail then; I don't really understand these legal matters so I'll stop talking. But before I do so I want to voice my support for this. --Kaiting. -- Kiwis and Limes: http://kaitocracy.blogspot.com/
On 12/08/2010 11:47 PM, Armando M. Baratti wrote:
Probably many of you know about the acquisition of 882 of Novell's patents by a Microsoft organized consortium [1].
What you may not know is that, as Novell was part of OIN (Open Invention Network), those that join OIN *before* the closing date for the acquisition (about january 23) will be protected from any harassment regarding these patents. This [2] Groklaw's article explains it in more detail.
It works because the patents are granted perpetually to OIN members that have jointed before the closing date, even in the case of a sell (like occurred in this case).
You don't need to have patents or be a company to join (for free) OIN. Any project (like Arch Linux), or even an individual can do it.
I understand that *if* MS will use them, it'll be with the big guys (or at least some company). Probably they will prefer to use the patents just for FUD.
But OTOH we have nothing to loose (not even patents :-), and it's free.
[1] http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20101124103213...
[2] http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101206205654916
Armando
stop spreading FUD -- Ionuț
On Thu, 2010-12-09 at 00:17 +0200, Ionuț Bîru wrote:
On 12/08/2010 11:47 PM, Armando M. Baratti wrote:
Probably many of you know about the acquisition of 882 of Novell's patents by a Microsoft organized consortium [1].
<snip>
Armando
stop spreading FUD
The more paranoia and activity is generated around these sort of 'threats' on and off-line, the stronger Microsoft's hand will be. Patent-based threats are both objective and subjective, these initiatives strengthen the subjective aspect of it.
On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 19:47 -0200, Armando M. Baratti wrote:
It works because the patents are granted perpetually to OIN members that have jointed before the closing date, even in the case of a sell (like occurred in this case).
If Microsoft wants to get you, they will do so anyways, OIN member or not. OIN does not have a patent license for ALL patents that are being sold, and even if they had them, Microsoft has several other trivial patents like the ones on VFAT that can be used to sue everybody. Newsflash: they don't. Remember Google getting sued by Oracle? Both are OIN members, it's just a fact that not all patents owned by Oracle are shared with OIN, so Oracle is free to sue any OIN-member that uses those patents without a license.
Em 08-12-2010 20:32, Jan de Groot escreveu:
On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 19:47 -0200, Armando M. Baratti wrote:
It works because the patents are granted perpetually to OIN members that have jointed before the closing date, even in the case of a sell (like occurred in this case).
If Microsoft wants to get you, they will do so anyways, OIN member or not. OIN does not have a patent license for ALL patents that are being sold, and even if they had them, Microsoft has several other trivial patents like the ones on VFAT that can be used to sue everybody. Newsflash: they don't. Remember Google getting sued by Oracle? Both are OIN members, it's just a fact that not all patents owned by Oracle are shared with OIN, so Oracle is free to sue any OIN-member that uses those patents without a license.
Yes, OIN doesn't have *all* patents. But neither does MS. Probably they have many patents that affect MS and this can make a OIN member less desirable to be a target for harassment. Remember, MS is not interested on the small companies, they want to use them just to spread FUD. They want only the cases where they can be sure they'll win so they can offer an undisclosed agreement. With the big boys the matter is different... I'm not a lawyer. I just read Groklaw's article and though it could be of some value to Arch Linux and/or another people in the list. Armando
On 08-12-2010 22:32, Jan de Groot wrote:
On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 19:47 -0200, Armando M. Baratti wrote:
It works because the patents are granted perpetually to OIN members that have jointed before the closing date, even in the case of a sell (like occurred in this case).
If Microsoft wants to get you, they will do so anyways, OIN member or not. OIN does not have a patent license for ALL patents that are being sold, and even if they had them, Microsoft has several other trivial patents like the ones on VFAT that can be used to sue everybody. Newsflash: they don't. Remember Google getting sued by Oracle? Both are OIN members, it's just a fact that not all patents owned by Oracle are shared with OIN, so Oracle is free to sue any OIN-member that uses those patents without a license.
I have to agree that MS isn't going after the small guys, it's not profitable. I also have to agree with Ng Oon-Ee that joining may be raising the subjective value of the patents. However if joining is free and there are no maintenance costs, being protected from some patents is better than nothing, even if MS or any other party have other patents in their arsenal that can make the small guys close the shop if they want to. It would be interesting to know what other distros are doing, specially the larger ones which might be a target first. -- Mauro Santos
On Thursday 09 December 2010 11:00:43 Mauro Santos wrote:
If Microsoft wants to get you, they will do so anyways, OIN member or not. OIN does not have a patent license for ALL patents that are being sold, and even if they had them, Microsoft has several other trivial patents like the ones on VFAT that can be used to sue everybody. Newsflash: they don't. Remember Google getting sued by Oracle? Both are OIN members, it's just a fact that not all patents owned by Oracle are shared with OIN, so Oracle is free to sue any OIN-member that uses those patents without a license.
I have to agree that MS isn't going after the small guys, it's not profitable. I also have to agree with Ng Oon-Ee that joining may be raising the subjective value of the patents.
However if joining is free and there are no maintenance costs, being protected from some patents is better than nothing, even if MS or any other party have other patents in their arsenal that can make the small guys close the shop if they want to.
It would be interesting to know what other distros are doing, specially the larger ones which might be a target first.
My view would be that we need to reject even the idea of stuff like this. It's just FUD, and quite effective FUD at that. Pete.
On 12/09/2010 05:05 AM, Peter Lewis wrote:
It would be interesting to know what other distros are doing, specially
the larger ones which might be a target first. My view would be that we need to reject even the idea of stuff like this. It's just FUD, and quite effective FUD at that.
Pete.
In anything like this you have to ask "what is the business model here..." At face value, OIN leaves you scratching your head. Business Model: (1) Acquire Patents (2) Make them available royalty free in exchange for an agreement not to sue Linux.
From the FAQ:
Q. What does Open Invention Network® do with the royalty streams of its patents? A. It is not anticipated that there will be any royalty streams. Huh? A company that buys patents and gives them away for free? Let me invest -- sign me up? So what is the end game here? (A) CEO Keith Bergelt, is either an altruistic Linux patriot - not; or (B) perhaps Bergelt sees something in it for him. A brief review of his history points to a possible answer: Prior to joining the Open Invention Network®, Mr. Bergelt served as president and CEO of two Hedge Funds – Paradox Capital and IPI – formed to unlock the considerable asset value of patents, trademarks and copyrights in middle market companies. Paradox and IPI were the first Funds of their kind to offer specialty lending products supported exclusively by intellectual property. Driven by Mr. Bergelt's creativity and entrepreneurial approach, these funds enabled the emergence of patents, trademarks and copyrights as a viable source of collateral in asset-based loans, forever reshaping the emerging IP Finance landscape. So it would appear or suggest, that OIN wants to collect patents that can then be used as collateral for securing the acquisition of capital -- for what...? It starts to smell a bit like collateralized debt obligations or credit default swaps at this point. (Take existing paper, not worth much in its current form, repackage it in a new or different way, have a voodoo appraisal done that vastly overstates the value of the patents, and use it as collateral to secure huge loans for OIN -- brilliant) The real danger to the community is in the event of default by OIN on any obligations secured by the OIN patents and having the patents change hands. In that event, the new owners have no obligation to continue the *royalty free* licensing model and can choose to either (1) fire-sale the patents to the highest bidder - linux competitors perhaps; (2) discontinue the royalty fee license and extort money from those that have integrated the technology into their business or products; or (3) turn into patent trolls to recover money in that manner. Or any combination. I don't see OIN Membership as providing any benefit to Arch or any other distro for that matter. The only tangible promise is a hollow 'you won't get sued by any member that enters into a OIN licensing agreement'. So what. That and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee -- maybe. At best, anyone faced with a suit possibly implicating the protections of the OIN scheme, stands as nothing more than a third-party beneficiary of the license agreement between OIN and the licensee. At first blush, I can't even come up with a scenario where that would be any type of defense at all. (proving you were an *intended* third-party beneficiary is never a sure thing) Anyway, this is just my quick cut on the issue after thinking through the issue briefly and looking into the information OIN has up on its site. I see this is one of those things you treat like a rattlesnake. The only way to stay safe is to stay out of striking distance... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
participants (9)
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Armando M. Baratti
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David C. Rankin
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Ionuț Bîru
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Jan de Groot
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Kaiting Chen
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Mauro Santos
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Ng Oon-Ee
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Peter Lewis
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Sven-Hendrik Haase