[arch-general] NEW RECORD! 769 packages out of date
On Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021 at 1:21 AM, Billy Morgan via arch-general <arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:
https://archlinux.org/packages/?sort=flag_date&flagged=Flagged
I updated 2021-10-06 the last time and just found 241 packages waiting for me. It would be interesting to know the amount of outdated packages at the beginning of October, so that we can make clear statements about how badly, if at all, things are getting out of hand. cheers! mar77i Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
The nature of Arch Linux is to be bleeding edge, however, a little out of date ness can be healthy as it can provide some much needed stability. I suppose the supposed problem of instability of a bleeding edge rolling release distro is solved when there's so many packages not being updated. Many packages on that list have been marked out of date not long ago (less than a week for some). It may also be me, but some of the packages appear to have been updated after the flag date, for example nageru https://archlinux.org/packages/community/x86_64/nageru/ . What removes a package flag at that point? What's really important is that the security updates get in. I also think your query includes testing packages, which only affect a small portion of Arch Users. Some notable packages that are out of date: * audacity (this might be justified) * playonlinux * libnet * ttf-opensans * pingus * electrum * libldap * shadow * gcc * glibc * busybox * dash * newsflash * wget * openssl and lib32-openssl * vsftpd * go-ipfs * mutter * postgresql * yubioath-desktop * gnupg * nodejs * vim and gvim * seahorse * dhcpcd * linux-firmware * linux * linux-lts * linux-zen Matthew "Madness" Evan. On 11/2/21 20:21, Billy Morgan via arch-general wrote:
https://archlinux.org/packages/?sort=flag_date&flagged=Flagged
Hi Billy, I'm sure you have good intentions, but please don't do it like this. If you want to help I'm sure that's appreciated, but with this "NEW RECORD" tone you're just being rude. Being rude is not an effective way to convince people to help you or let you help them. There are better ways to point out a problem. (I'm not saying that you're wrong, nor that you are right. But I hope this comes across as calm and well-meaning as intended.) /Emil On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, 01:22 Billy Morgan via arch-general, < arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:
https://archlinux.org/packages/?sort=flag_date&flagged=Flagged
Thank you Emil for the response. Something had to be done. There is 0. I Repeat ZERO communication from the devs and maintainers. I don't mean to be rude. I love Arch. I do this out of care. If embarrassment is what it takes to actually get some movement, some communication then so be it. This has been a problem that has been building for a long time and seems to just be getting worse not better. LET US (community) HELP YOU! Talk to us. Since Reddit is cucked, please see the thread I created on 4chan for actual discussion: https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/84124691 <https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/84124691#p84125961> There have been allegations brought up of the Gnome maintainer saying they were too busy playing Fortnight or some other game to care. If true, that is not acceptable. Maintainers should not be able to hold packages hostage for the sake of fame. Even if not true, the issue still stands of packages being held hostage. With the upcoming Steam Deck, I'm hoping a huge influx of users come to GNU+Linux. We need to be at our best or everyone will crawl back to the duopoly that is Microsoft Windows and Apple macOS. This is our current shot to actually make a dent in the computing worlds usage %. Games are what push technological advancement forward. The more users we have = the more game dev support we have which might make Nvidia actually take GNU+Linux seriously. On Tuesday, 2 November 2021, Emil Lundberg <lundberg.emil@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Billy, I'm sure you have good intentions, but please don't do it like this. If you want to help I'm sure that's appreciated, but with this "NEW RECORD" tone you're just being rude. Being rude is not an effective way to convince people to help you or let you help them. There are better ways to point out a problem.
(I'm not saying that you're wrong, nor that you are right. But I hope this comes across as calm and well-meaning as intended.)
/Emil
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, 01:22 Billy Morgan via arch-general, < arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:
https://archlinux.org/packages/?sort=flag_date&flagged=Flagged
Hi, On 03/11/2021 04:03, Billy Morgan via arch-general wrote:
Thank you Emil for the response.
Something had to be done. There is 0. I Repeat ZERO communication from the devs and maintainers.
I don't mean to be rude. I love Arch. I do this out of care. If embarrassment is what it takes to actually get some movement, some communication then so be it.
I'm sorry but your tone is rude and as the mail only contains a link it's just causing drama / sensation.
This has been a problem that has been building for a long time and seems to just be getting worse not better. LET US (community) HELP YOU! Talk to us.
Since Reddit is cucked, please see the thread I created on 4chan for actual discussion: https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/84124691 <https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/84124691#p84125961>
There have been allegations brought up of the Gnome maintainer saying they were too busy playing Fortnight or some other game to care. If true, that is not acceptable. Maintainers should not be able to hold packages hostage for the sake of fame.
I'm highly skeptical of any "discussion" on 4chan are being made in good faith, but making personal allegations is crossing the line. It's simply not acceptable on this mailing lists. So you are now moderated, as I have good faith in the rest of the list knows how to hold a civil discussion.
Even if not true, the issue still stands of packages being held hostage.
The point is entirely moot, there is no contract between an Arch Linux packager and the user. What someone puts his time into is none of your business.
With the upcoming Steam Deck, I'm hoping a huge influx of users come to GNU+Linux. We need to be at our best or everyone will crawl back to the duopoly that is Microsoft Windows and Apple macOS. This is our current shot to actually make a dent in the computing worlds usage %. Games are what push technological advancement forward. The more users we have = the more game dev support we have which might make Nvidia actually take GNU+Linux seriously.
That's a very optimistic view and for new users Fedora might be a better fit. Greetings, Jelle van der Waa
Hi Billy,
I don't mean to be rude. ... LET US (community) HELP YOU!
Please stop SHOUTING, for that's how it reads. For emphasis, either work on the choice of words to better convey your meaning or apply *stress* indicators. -- Cheers, Ralph.
El miércoles, 3 de noviembre de 2021 1:21:24 (CET), Billy Morgan via arch-general escribió:
https://archlinux.org/packages/?sort=flag_date&flagged=Flagged
Ignoring for a moment the inapropriate tone of the message, I'll just point out that this number is completely meaningless, for the simple reason that it counts *pkgnames* and not *pkgbases*. So, for instance, firefox-developer-edition contributes almost 100 packages to the total count.
On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 08:17:37AM +0100, Antonio Rojas via arch-general wrote:
El miércoles, 3 de noviembre de 2021 1:21:24 (CET), Billy Morgan via arch-general escribió:
https://archlinux.org/packages/?sort=flag_date&flagged=Flagged
Ignoring for a moment the inapropriate tone of the message, I'll just point out that this number is completely meaningless, for the simple reason that it counts *pkgnames* and not *pkgbases*. So, for instance, firefox-developer-edition contributes almost 100 packages to the total count.
Including that this number is user supplied. It's either wrong, misguided or invalid. https://repology.org/repositories/statistics 7909 updated packages, 84.9%, 1393 outdated packages, 15.0%. Repology is by no means accurate either. It struggles to detect valid package versions and sometimes there are technicalities which is wrong. But generally it's good enough to get an idea. Now, Please stop posting FUD people. This all started with a misguided reddit thread and currentl spun on 4chan as a problem. That's what they do and clearly it seems like it's working when people post threads like this pissing off maintainers. -- Morten Linderud PGP: 9C02FF419FECBE16
On Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021 at 4:27 AM, Morten Linderud via arch-general <arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 08:17:37AM +0100, Antonio Rojas via arch-general wrote: Now,
Please stop posting FUD people. This all started with a misguided reddit thread
and currentl spun on 4chan as a problem. That's what they do and clearly it
seems like it's working when people post threads like this pissing off
maintainers.
In full disclosure, you are one of the reddit mods. And probably the one who deleted the thread there about this very real problem. You're the same reddit mod who swiftly deletes all threads every year that Arch changes its logo to a rainbow and users (rightly) complain that a purely technical project should not force politics down users' throats. Stifling discussion you don't particularly like is something you've been known to do. OP's tone was fine in the first email. Being impatient, he made the mistake of creating a second mailing list thread with a bombastic title in all caps. We can all see he was in the wrong for that, but it doesn't take away from the fact that a concerning number of packages - ranging from mostly unimportant to critical - are not being maintained. There is a lack of communication from the project to its users about this right now. More transparency on things like "who's maintaining the toolchain now" would go a long way.
On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 09:20:10AM +0000, Christopher W. wrote:
On Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021 at 4:27 AM, Morten Linderud via arch-general <arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 08:17:37AM +0100, Antonio Rojas via arch-general wrote: Now,
Please stop posting FUD people. This all started with a misguided reddit thread and currentl spun on 4chan as a problem. That's what they do and clearly it seems like it's working when people post threads like this pissing off maintainers.
In full disclosure, you are one of the reddit mods. And probably the one who deleted the thread there about this very real problem. You're the same reddit mod who swiftly deletes all threads every year that Arch changes its logo to a rainbow and users (rightly) complain that a purely technical project should not force politics down users' throats. Stifling discussion you don't particularly like is something you've been known to do.
OP's tone was fine in the first email. Being impatient, he made the mistake of creating a second mailing list thread with a bombastic title in all caps. We can all see he was in the wrong for that, but it doesn't take away from the fact that a concerning number of packages - ranging from mostly unimportant to critical - are not being maintained. There is a lack of communication from the project to its users about this right now. More transparency on things like "who's maintaining the toolchain now" would go a long way.
First of all: Trans rights are not politics. It's about human rights. For that I got death threats a couple of times and some alt-rights claiming I'll be hanged. I assure you it was a "fun" month. You are also completely ignoring the fact that there where literally 20 threads about this being created and everything was stuffed into one for the sake of not spreading the discussion. It's called moderation. And for rest of it: This was the thread that was moderated: https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/qkby7s/plea_either_add_more_trus... There had been a similar thread not even 7 days prior which has had a good discussion. There is no need for these threads every week thus it's marked as duplicate. Then they created 3 new threads which got as much traction as you'd expect on this topic across several subreddits. https://www.reddit.com/user/Legendary-Pokemon Then I guess they posted this on 4chan because they love stirring up shit like this. This isn't about helping anyone. This is nothing but FUD and being self-righteous. Expecting overworked maintainers to do more while not lifting a finger and pointing at problems in an unconstructive manner. Again, we can discuss overarching problems like the toolchain. However the *number* of *flagged packages* is not an issue in of it self. -- Morten Linderud PGP: 9C02FF419FECBE16
On Wednesday 3 November 2021 10:37:01 CET Morten Linderud via arch-general
First of all: Trans rights are not politics. It's about human rights. For that I got death threats a couple of times and some alt-rights claiming I'll be hanged. I assure you it was a "fun" month.
Thank you for your moderation and your work on Arch Linux and for standing up for human rights.
Then I guess they posted this on 4chan because they love stirring up shit like this. This isn't about helping anyone. This is nothing but FUD and being self-righteous. Expecting overworked maintainers to do more while not lifting a finger and pointing at problems in an unconstructive manner.
I imagine this can be frustrating and tiring. I want to add my voice to say that I don't want to be lumped in with the shrill, unhelpful and self- righteous voices I am seeing on this thread. Thank you to all the Arch Linux developers for making using computers fun and exciting and a continued learning experience. Regards, -- Samir Nassar
On 11/3/21 11:37, Morten Linderud via arch-general wrote:
Then I guess they posted this on 4chan because they love stirring up shit like this. This isn't about helping anyone. This is nothing but FUD and being self-righteous. Expecting overworked maintainers to do more while not lifting a finger and pointing at problems in an unconstructive manner.
That's unfair to your userbase. There's no way for people to contribute to core packages, period. Community packages require being a TU, which as far as I know is not an easy process to go through. The AUR does not accept "under any circumstances"[1] packages already in community/core. We understand that maintainers may be overworked, we sympathize, and the message here should have been more focused on "how can we make this situation better". But you do need to tell us what kind of help you need. Or, if you feel that there is no help needed, make this clear and let us know that the status quo is acceptable from your point of view. Best regards, Vasi Vilvoiu [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AUR_submission_guidelines#Rules_of_submissi...
On Wednesday 3 November 2021 11:47:32 CET Vasi Vilvoiu via arch-general wrote:
That's unfair to your userbase. There's no way for people to contribute to core packages, period. Community packages require being a TU, which as far as I know is not an easy process to go through. The AUR does not accept "under any circumstances"[1] packages already in community/core.
I don't see how not having access to to the Arch Linux infrastructure stops you or anyone from collaborating on fixes using ones own resources. Whether you use a platform such as GitHub, GitLab straight up hosting the assets yourself all work. If I were an outsider to a project, and I am, and want to help, I would start by hosting my own diffs and doing so on a regular basis so that others can see how reliable I am, how transparent I am, and how willing I am to show my capacity to learning from others. The biggest single asset outsiders to a technical project bring is the ability to work with others. In this day of next-to-free hosting and cheap project management tooling solving your own problem with the so-called outdated packages is really accessible. The individuals clamoring for these really really really important and urgent updates could solve their own problem and patch their own systems within a week by actually working together and hosting their own patched updates. Regards, -- Samir Nassar
On 11/3/21 13:07, Samir Nassar via arch-general wrote:
On Wednesday 3 November 2021 11:47:32 CET Vasi Vilvoiu via arch-general wrote:
That's unfair to your userbase. There's no way for people to contribute to core packages, period. Community packages require being a TU, which as far as I know is not an easy process to go through. The AUR does not accept "under any circumstances"[1] packages already in community/core.
I don't see how not having access to to the Arch Linux infrastructure stops you or anyone from collaborating on fixes using ones own resources. Whether you use a platform such as GitHub, GitLab straight up hosting the assets yourself all work.
People are already doing that for specific corner cases. There's also an exception in the AUR rules that allow packages compiled with patches or extra features. But that is in no way, shape or form a valid way of treating out of date packages. What is, then, the purpose of ArchLinux if I need to compile a good chunk of the packages (especially GNU toolchain)? Make no mistake, the selling point of Arch is that it provides binary package repos and the setup/sync time is very small. Take that away and we start having pacman/PKGBUILD vs Portage/ebuild discussions where the "winner" is not so clear cut as you think. What you should take away from this is not a threat (please, please, please!) but the fact that IMHO the developers need to make it clear what their stance is on this topic. Best regards, Vasi Vilvoiu
On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 12:47:32PM +0200, Vasi Vilvoiu via arch-general wrote:
On 11/3/21 11:37, Morten Linderud via arch-general wrote:
Then I guess they posted this on 4chan because they love stirring up shit like this. This isn't about helping anyone. This is nothing but FUD and being self-righteous. Expecting overworked maintainers to do more while not lifting a finger and pointing at problems in an unconstructive manner.
That's unfair to your userbase. There's no way for people to contribute to core packages, period. Community packages require being a TU, which as far as I know is not an easy process to go through. The AUR does not accept "under any circumstances"[1] packages already in community/core.
It's not unfair. There are correct ways to contribute, and there are wrong ways to contribute. Posting 4 spam posts on some linux subreddits: Wrong way to contribute. Posting threads on fucking 4chan: Wrong way to contribute. Engaging in a proper conversation about what can be done and ways for people to contribute: Correct way to contribute. And that was done here: https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/qe65hr/why_are_636_outofdate_fla... Everything after this has been nothing but condescending. You will notice I'm only addressing the two wrong ways. It's not about lumping everyone in this conversation into that, but you *really* need to figure out if you want to contribute to the current 4chan brigade on this topic or be constructive.
We understand that maintainers may be overworked, we sympathize, and the message here should have been more focused on "how can we make this situation better".
And that is the issue I'm pointing out, and why the intentions of the original poster doesn't align with the people coming afterwards.
But you do need to tell us what kind of help you need. Or, if you feel that there is no help needed, make this clear and let us know that the status quo is acceptable from your point of view.
It's hard because we can't let people loose on the repositories. There needs to be a structural change to how we adopt packagers and how we accept user contributors. But it's hard for people outside of Arch to do anything here. If you want to get active you need to either engage on the bugtracker or engage in the development projects that help us get git support so we can more easily organize user contributions. https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/qe65hr/why_are_636_outofdate_fla...
Best regards, Vasi Vilvoiu
[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AUR_submission_guidelines#Rules_of_submissi...
And let me be precise here, All projects have issues. None of this is unique to Arch. Arch doesn't have more nor less issues then any other distributions that is running well into their second decade with an active user base. This doesn't mean that any issues doesn't matter, far from it. But people need to realize that managing FOSS projects is an endless pit of problems and issues to be solved. Spreading FUD and doomsday predictions does nothing but drive people away from engaging in these issues. -- Morten Linderud PGP: 9C02FF419FECBE16
On Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021 at 5:37 AM, Morten Linderud <foxboron@archlinux.org> wrote:
First of all: Trans rights are not politics. It's about human rights.
Do you see the fallacy here? You've taken a controversial opinion, assumed it as fact, and framed the rest of the self-justification around that. "Transgender" people do not exist, because one cannot change his or her gender. No amount of surgery or cosplaying changes this biological fact. Those who participate in transgenderism need help, and coddling to their delusions does not help them. The suicide rate has only gone up over time in every statistic I've seen. Clearly there's something else wrong; not bigotry or hatred or whatever else. More times than not, they are very closed off to anyone else with a differing worldview. Even within the echo chambers that are free of any criticism, they're still offing themselves at an alarming rate. Moreover, rights are given to people by whom? The state. I see misuse of "human rights" very often in these types of discussions. No one is stopping anyone from doing their own thing in the privacy of their own home, so which rights are the so-called trans people being denied? The ability to lie about who they are on government-issued ID forms? https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1455744911316332546
You are also completely ignoring the fact that there where literally 20 threads
about this being created and everything was stuffed into one for the sake of not
spreading the discussion.
It's called moderation.
Merging threads into one or stopping an influx of new threads is fine, but shouldn't users be able to find The Thread to discuss it? The one you linked is from 11 days ago. With all the influx of broken wifi threads every single day, how long do you think that'll be on the front page? One day, if that? (I would propose all support threads go somewhere else, but that's just me.)
Then I guess they posted this on 4chan because they love stirring up shit like
this. This isn't about helping anyone. This is nothing but FUD and being
self-righteous. Expecting overworked maintainers to do more while not lifting
a finger and pointing at problems in an unconstructive manner.
Some people may like to stir up trouble, but are the issues still valid? Are there still almost 1000 outdated packages? Is the core toolchain not being taken care of? It's very easy to dismiss a point because of how it's presented, I get it, but the original thread from Billy *did* ask how users can realistically help. Being unable to submit diffs leaves us with no other option than maintaining our own local trees and making threads like this in the hope that someone with commit access will descend from above to help the community.
Can we get this transphobe off this list, already? They're already showing an unwillingness to say something productive and now they're just shitting over entire classes of people. Yaro On 11/3/21 12:41 PM, Christopher W. via arch-general wrote:
On Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021 at 5:37 AM, Morten Linderud <foxboron@archlinux.org> wrote:
First of all: Trans rights are not politics. It's about human rights. Do you see the fallacy here? You've taken a controversial opinion, assumed it as fact, and framed the rest of the self-justification around that.
"Transgender" people do not exist, because one cannot change his or her gender. No amount of surgery or cosplaying changes this biological fact. Those who participate in transgenderism need help, and coddling to their delusions does not help them. The suicide rate has only gone up over time in every statistic I've seen. Clearly there's something else wrong; not bigotry or hatred or whatever else. More times than not, they are very closed off to anyone else with a differing worldview. Even within the echo chambers that are free of any criticism, they're still offing themselves at an alarming rate.
Moreover, rights are given to people by whom? The state. I see misuse of "human rights" very often in these types of discussions. No one is stopping anyone from doing their own thing in the privacy of their own home, so which rights are the so-called trans people being denied? The ability to lie about who they are on government-issued ID forms?
https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1455744911316332546
You are also completely ignoring the fact that there where literally 20 threads
about this being created and everything was stuffed into one for the sake of not
spreading the discussion.
It's called moderation. Merging threads into one or stopping an influx of new threads is fine, but shouldn't users be able to find The Thread to discuss it? The one you linked is from 11 days ago. With all the influx of broken wifi threads every single day, how long do you think that'll be on the front page? One day, if that? (I would propose all support threads go somewhere else, but that's just me.)
Then I guess they posted this on 4chan because they love stirring up shit like
this. This isn't about helping anyone. This is nothing but FUD and being
self-righteous. Expecting overworked maintainers to do more while not lifting
a finger and pointing at problems in an unconstructive manner. Some people may like to stir up trouble, but are the issues still valid? Are there still almost 1000 outdated packages? Is the core toolchain not being taken care of? It's very easy to dismiss a point because of how it's presented, I get it, but the original thread from Billy *did* ask how users can realistically help. Being unable to submit diffs leaves us with no other option than maintaining our own local trees and making threads like this in the hope that someone with commit access will descend from above to help the community.
On 11/3/21 10:47, Yaro Kasear via arch-general wrote:
Can we get this transphobe off this list, already?
They're already showing an unwillingness to say something productive and now they're just shitting over entire classes of people.
Seconded, fwiw. It is clear that they the "political" angle is just a way to have a project tacitly agree with them rather than a project that "stays out of it." -Sam
Στις Τετ, 3 Νοε 2021 στις 7:55 μ.μ., ο/η Sam Mulvey via arch-general < arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> έγραψε:
On 11/3/21 10:47, Yaro Kasear via arch-general wrote:
Can we get this transphobe off this list, already?
Yeah, do that. Smear and cancel whomever won't agree with your own opinion, sounds very tolerant and inclusive.
Seconded, fwiw.
It's worth shit, and I'm only using this word because I saw it written (along with "fuck") by some privileged Arch dev or TU in this thread. Perhaps this situation can also explain why some Arch staff had ample time to impose a fuzzy CoC instead of updating packages. Amirite?
I don't feel bad about smearing or canceling bigots. Fuck off. Yaro On 11/3/21 1:23 PM, Ody Ν via arch-general wrote:
Στις Τετ, 3 Νοε 2021 στις 7:55 μ.μ., ο/η Sam Mulvey via arch-general < arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> έγραψε:
On 11/3/21 10:47, Yaro Kasear via arch-general wrote:
Can we get this transphobe off this list, already? Yeah, do that. Smear and cancel whomever won't agree with your own opinion, sounds very tolerant and inclusive.
Seconded, fwiw.
It's worth shit, and I'm only using this word because I saw it written (along with "fuck") by some privileged Arch dev or TU in this thread.
Perhaps this situation can also explain why some Arch staff had ample time to impose a fuzzy CoC instead of updating packages. Amirite?
Στις Τετ, 3 Νοε 2021 στις 8:25 μ.μ., ο/η Yaro Kasear via arch-general < arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> έγραψε:
I don't feel bad about smearing or canceling bigots. Fuck off.
Thanks for proving publicly what you are.
Hi, everybody, just another Arch user here (also other distros user in fact), very thankful of all the excellent services this excellent project has brought me, freely (in every sense), for many years now, from the OS to the wiki, through the repos and community help. Seems to me that Arch has some of the difficulties any project of its kind has, so, nothing surprising until here. If anyone want to help I think the normal path is to ask how can I help and then wait for the answer and try to fulfill it. Otherwise, you can always put your hands at work in any way you decide and then offer what you choose to and just wait if your offering is accepted or not..., in the end, FLOSS will never stop nobody from forking. All this in a very rational and calmed fashion, putting gentleness and respect in a very first place, I suppose. By the other hand, mixing this technical issues with personal, sexual, gender, whatever other issues makes the conversation noisy and erratic. That subjects should have (if necessary) its own thread, I think. Patience, understanding, good luck and thanks to everybody. Sorry for adding my two cents of noise. ;) Kind regards.
Trans rights is politics, but that's not a bad thing. Human rights is politics. Veganism is politics. Free and open source software is politics. Just because something is "tech" doesn't make it apolitical, nor should it be. However, human rights (including trans rights) and equality is the one political topic that is not up for debate. Opposing them _is wrong_, and no amount of debate will change that. You are welcome to take your disagreement elsewhere. /Emil
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, November 4th, 2021 at 12:27 AM, Emil Lundberg via arch-general <arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:
Trans rights is politics
Exactly, and it has no place in technical (programming, software) list.
However, human rights (including trans rights) and equality is the one political topic that is not up for debate. Opposing them is wrong ...
No. Just a remind: this is technical list devoted to Arch Linux. Any kind of political agenda (including LGBT rights, left-liberal political agenda in general) is offtopic here. I am surprised this thread is not closed: many threads were closed for a lesser offtopic bloat.
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 06:27:19 +0000, Maxim Fomin via arch-general wrote:
Any kind of political agenda (including LGBT rights, left-liberal political agenda in general) is offtopic here.
Yes, but nobody excepted of intolerant subscribers are offended by human rights, including the freedom of sexual expression. Btw. human rights are not limited to scientific "facts" (correct or incorrect "facts"). Human rights even grant the freedom to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, not only at home, but also in public. If you follow this and older threads related to the "rainbow" topic, nobody "force politics down users", some subscribers who dislike "rainbows" mentioned that topic a year or two ago and now, the distribution and the list moderators didn't.
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, November 4th, 2021 at 7:28 AM, Ralf Mardorf via arch-general <arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 06:27:19 +0000, Maxim Fomin via arch-general wrote:
Any kind of political agenda (including LGBT rights, left-liberal
political agenda in general) is offtopic here.
Yes, but ...
Then any such discussion is offtopic, including discussing 'intolerant subscribers which are offended by human rights'.
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 08:25:23 +0000, Maxim Fomin via arch-general wrote:
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Thursday, November 4th, 2021 at 7:28 AM, Ralf Mardorf via arch-general <arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 06:27:19 +0000, Maxim Fomin via arch-general wrote:
Any kind of political agenda (including LGBT rights, left-liberal
political agenda in general) is offtopic here.
Yes, but ...
Then any such discussion is offtopic, including discussing 'intolerant subscribers which are offended by human rights'.
I agree, but those are the subscribers bringing up this topic again, so they should expect a corrective reply. To my knowledge the distribution _never_ changed the logo to a rainbow or rainbow coloured Arch logo, hence there's nothing to talk about at all. The very point is that "human rights (including trans rights) and equality is the one political topic that is not up for debate. Opposing them _is wrong_, and no amount of debate will change that." - Emil Lundberg IMHO people who can't accept human rights and who wish to exclude people from public, should stop wining, if they are unwanted, especially if they bring up such a topic in the first place. I for one will filter out this thread and continue to agree with human rights, but ban all those who are against human rights.
On 04/11/2021 09:42, Ralf Mardorf via arch-general wrote:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 08:25:23 +0000, Maxim Fomin via arch-general wrote:
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Thursday, November 4th, 2021 at 7:28 AM, Ralf Mardorf via arch-general <arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 06:27:19 +0000, Maxim Fomin via arch-general wrote:
Any kind of political agenda (including LGBT rights, left-liberal
political agenda in general) is offtopic here.
Yes, but ...
Then any such discussion is offtopic, including discussing 'intolerant subscribers which are offended by human rights'.
I agree, but those are the subscribers bringing up this topic again, so they should expect a corrective reply. To my knowledge the distribution _never_ changed the logo to a rainbow or rainbow coloured Arch logo, hence there's nothing to talk about at all.
The very point is that
"human rights (including trans rights) and equality is the one political topic that is not up for debate. Opposing them _is wrong_, and no amount of debate will change that." - Emil Lundberg
IMHO people who can't accept human rights and who wish to exclude people from public, should stop wining, if they are unwanted, especially if they bring up such a topic in the first place.
I for one will filter out this thread and continue to agree with human rights, but ban all those who are against human rights.
Please stop this thread, and move on. You have made your point clear.
On Wed, 03 Nov 2021 09:20:10 +0000, Christopher W. wrote:
You're the same reddit mod who swiftly deletes all threads every year that Arch changes its logo to a rainbow and users (rightly) complain that a purely technical project should not force politics down users' throats.
Hi, IIRC Arch never changed the logo to a rainbow flag coloured logo on pride day or any other day. IIRC some people changed the colour of the logo in that way and they a free to do so, hence any discussion related to it is needless. Regards, Ralf
El mié, 3 nov 2021 a las 9:28, Morten Linderud via arch-general (< arch-general@lists.archlinux.org>) escribió:
https://repology.org/repositories/statistics
7909 updated packages, 84.9%, 1393 outdated packages, 15.0%.
A 15% not is a _small percentage_. IMHO I do not think it is a negligible value. -- Óscar García Amor | ogarcia at moire.org | http://ogarcia.me
We have the gcc suite that is out of date. We have gdb that was (for some reason) split from binutils that is actually up to date, and this creates some (minor) issues. They are maintained by different developers, which shows that not only are they not communicating with the community, they are not communicating with each other. I can totally understand the frustration. Best regards, Vasi Vilvoiu On 11/3/21 09:17, Antonio Rojas via arch-general wrote:
El miércoles, 3 de noviembre de 2021 1:21:24 (CET), Billy Morgan via arch-general escribió:
https://archlinux.org/packages/?sort=flag_date&flagged=Flagged
Ignoring for a moment the inapropriate tone of the message, I'll just point out that this number is completely meaningless, for the simple reason that it counts *pkgnames* and not *pkgbases*. So, for instance, firefox-developer-edition contributes almost 100 packages to the total count.
Hi Antonio,
I'll just point out that this number is completely meaningless, for the simple reason that it counts *pkgnames* and not *pkgbases*. So, for instance, firefox-developer-edition contributes almost 100 packages to the total count.
Would an accurate count of how many pkgbases are flagged as out of date, charted as how long they've been flagged, be interesting enough to spend the effort creating it? Could the data then be recorded over time so the change can be observed. This might then assuage concerns that ‘Arch is dying!’ or help highlight times when there's a dip in maintenance and decide what should be tried to help. Perhaps the historical data is already present, e.g. flag changes are recorded by date rather than just current state, and so that can be trawled to give us that over-time view today. -- Cheers, Ralph.
participants (18)
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Antonio Rojas
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Billy Morgan
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Christopher W.
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Emil Lundberg
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Jelle van der Waa
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mar77i
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Matt Madness
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Maxim Fomin
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Morten Linderud
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Ody Ν
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Ralf Mardorf
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Ralph Corderoy
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riveravaldez
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Sam Mulvey
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Samir Nassar
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Vasi Vilvoiu
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Yaro Kasear
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Óscar García Amor