Thank you Emil for the response. Something had to be done. There is 0. I Repeat ZERO communication from the devs and maintainers. I don't mean to be rude. I love Arch. I do this out of care. If embarrassment is what it takes to actually get some movement, some communication then so be it. This has been a problem that has been building for a long time and seems to just be getting worse not better. LET US (community) HELP YOU! Talk to us. Since Reddit is cucked, please see the thread I created on 4chan for actual discussion: https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/84124691 https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/84124691#p84125961 There have been allegations brought up of the Gnome maintainer saying they were too busy playing Fortnight or some other game to care. If true, that is not acceptable. Maintainers should not be able to hold packages hostage for the sake of fame. Even if not true, the issue still stands of packages being held hostage. With the upcoming Steam Deck, I'm hoping a huge influx of users come to GNU+Linux. We need to be at our best or everyone will crawl back to the duopoly that is Microsoft Windows and Apple macOS. This is our current shot to actually make a dent in the computing worlds usage %. Games are what push technological advancement forward. The more users we have = the more game dev support we have which might make Nvidia actually take GNU+Linux seriously. On Tuesday, 2 November 2021, Emil Lundberg wrote:

Hi Billy, I'm sure you have good intentions, but please don't do it like this. If you want to help I'm sure that's appreciated, but with this "NEW RECORD" tone you're just being rude. Being rude is not an effective way to convince people to help you or let you help them. There are better ways to point out a problem.

(I'm not saying that you're wrong, nor that you are right. But I hope this comes across as calm and well-meaning as intended.)

/Emil

On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, 01:22 Billy Morgan via arch-general, < arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> wrote:

...

https://archlinux.org/packages/?sort=flag_date&flagged=Flagged

Hi Billy,

I don't mean to be rude. ... LET US (community) HELP YOU!

Please stop SHOUTING, for that's how it reads. For emphasis, either work on the choice of words to better convey your meaning or apply *stress* indicators. -- Cheers, Ralph.

On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 08:17:37AM +0100, Antonio Rojas via arch-general wrote:

El miércoles, 3 de noviembre de 2021 1:21:24 (CET), Billy Morgan via arch-general escribió:

...

https://archlinux.org/packages/?sort=flag_date&flagged=Flagged

Ignoring for a moment the inapropriate tone of the message, I'll just point out that this number is completely meaningless, for the simple reason that it counts *pkgnames* and not *pkgbases*. So, for instance, firefox-developer-edition contributes almost 100 packages to the total count.

Including that this number is user supplied. It's either wrong, misguided or invalid. https://repology.org/repositories/statistics 7909 updated packages, 84.9%, 1393 outdated packages, 15.0%. Repology is by no means accurate either. It struggles to detect valid package versions and sometimes there are technicalities which is wrong. But generally it's good enough to get an idea. Now, Please stop posting FUD people. This all started with a misguided reddit thread and currentl spun on 4chan as a problem. That's what they do and clearly it seems like it's working when people post threads like this pissing off maintainers. -- Morten Linderud PGP: 9C02FF419FECBE16

On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 09:20:10AM +0000, Christopher W. wrote:

On Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021 at 4:27 AM, Morten Linderud via arch-general wrote:

...

On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 08:17:37AM +0100, Antonio Rojas via arch-general wrote: Now,

Please stop posting FUD people. This all started with a misguided reddit thread and currentl spun on 4chan as a problem. That's what they do and clearly it seems like it's working when people post threads like this pissing off maintainers.

In full disclosure, you are one of the reddit mods. And probably the one who deleted the thread there about this very real problem. You're the same reddit mod who swiftly deletes all threads every year that Arch changes its logo to a rainbow and users (rightly) complain that a purely technical project should not force politics down users' throats. Stifling discussion you don't particularly like is something you've been known to do.

OP's tone was fine in the first email. Being impatient, he made the mistake of creating a second mailing list thread with a bombastic title in all caps. We can all see he was in the wrong for that, but it doesn't take away from the fact that a concerning number of packages - ranging from mostly unimportant to critical - are not being maintained. There is a lack of communication from the project to its users about this right now. More transparency on things like "who's maintaining the toolchain now" would go a long way.

First of all: Trans rights are not politics. It's about human rights. For that I got death threats a couple of times and some alt-rights claiming I'll be hanged. I assure you it was a "fun" month. You are also completely ignoring the fact that there where literally 20 threads about this being created and everything was stuffed into one for the sake of not spreading the discussion. It's called moderation. And for rest of it: This was the thread that was moderated: https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/qkby7s/plea_either_add_more_trus... There had been a similar thread not even 7 days prior which has had a good discussion. There is no need for these threads every week thus it's marked as duplicate. Then they created 3 new threads which got as much traction as you'd expect on this topic across several subreddits. https://www.reddit.com/user/Legendary-Pokemon Then I guess they posted this on 4chan because they love stirring up shit like this. This isn't about helping anyone. This is nothing but FUD and being self-righteous. Expecting overworked maintainers to do more while not lifting a finger and pointing at problems in an unconstructive manner. Again, we can discuss overarching problems like the toolchain. However the *number* of *flagged packages* is not an issue in of it self. -- Morten Linderud PGP: 9C02FF419FECBE16

On 11/3/21 11:37, Morten Linderud via arch-general wrote:

Then I guess they posted this on 4chan because they love stirring up shit like this. This isn't about helping anyone. This is nothing but FUD and being self-righteous. Expecting overworked maintainers to do more while not lifting a finger and pointing at problems in an unconstructive manner.

That's unfair to your userbase. There's no way for people to contribute to core packages, period. Community packages require being a TU, which as far as I know is not an easy process to go through. The AUR does not accept "under any circumstances"[1] packages already in community/core. We understand that maintainers may be overworked, we sympathize, and the message here should have been more focused on "how can we make this situation better". But you do need to tell us what kind of help you need. Or, if you feel that there is no help needed, make this clear and let us know that the status quo is acceptable from your point of view. Best regards, Vasi Vilvoiu [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AUR_submission_guidelines#Rules_of_submissi...

On 11/3/21 13:07, Samir Nassar via arch-general wrote:

On Wednesday 3 November 2021 11:47:32 CET Vasi Vilvoiu via arch-general wrote:

...

That's unfair to your userbase. There's no way for people to contribute to core packages, period. Community packages require being a TU, which as far as I know is not an easy process to go through. The AUR does not accept "under any circumstances"[1] packages already in community/core.

I don't see how not having access to to the Arch Linux infrastructure stops you or anyone from collaborating on fixes using ones own resources. Whether you use a platform such as GitHub, GitLab straight up hosting the assets yourself all work.

People are already doing that for specific corner cases. There's also an exception in the AUR rules that allow packages compiled with patches or extra features. But that is in no way, shape or form a valid way of treating out of date packages. What is, then, the purpose of ArchLinux if I need to compile a good chunk of the packages (especially GNU toolchain)? Make no mistake, the selling point of Arch is that it provides binary package repos and the setup/sync time is very small. Take that away and we start having pacman/PKGBUILD vs Portage/ebuild discussions where the "winner" is not so clear cut as you think. What you should take away from this is not a threat (please, please, please!) but the fact that IMHO the developers need to make it clear what their stance is on this topic. Best regards, Vasi Vilvoiu

On Wednesday, November 3rd, 2021 at 5:37 AM, Morten Linderud wrote:

First of all: Trans rights are not politics. It's about human rights.

Do you see the fallacy here? You've taken a controversial opinion, assumed it as fact, and framed the rest of the self-justification around that. "Transgender" people do not exist, because one cannot change his or her gender. No amount of surgery or cosplaying changes this biological fact. Those who participate in transgenderism need help, and coddling to their delusions does not help them. The suicide rate has only gone up over time in every statistic I've seen. Clearly there's something else wrong; not bigotry or hatred or whatever else. More times than not, they are very closed off to anyone else with a differing worldview. Even within the echo chambers that are free of any criticism, they're still offing themselves at an alarming rate. Moreover, rights are given to people by whom? The state. I see misuse of "human rights" very often in these types of discussions. No one is stopping anyone from doing their own thing in the privacy of their own home, so which rights are the so-called trans people being denied? The ability to lie about who they are on government-issued ID forms? https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1455744911316332546

You are also completely ignoring the fact that there where literally 20 threads

about this being created and everything was stuffed into one for the sake of not

spreading the discussion.

It's called moderation.

Merging threads into one or stopping an influx of new threads is fine, but shouldn't users be able to find The Thread to discuss it? The one you linked is from 11 days ago. With all the influx of broken wifi threads every single day, how long do you think that'll be on the front page? One day, if that? (I would propose all support threads go somewhere else, but that's just me.)

Then I guess they posted this on 4chan because they love stirring up shit like

this. This isn't about helping anyone. This is nothing but FUD and being

self-righteous. Expecting overworked maintainers to do more while not lifting

a finger and pointing at problems in an unconstructive manner.

Some people may like to stir up trouble, but are the issues still valid? Are there still almost 1000 outdated packages? Is the core toolchain not being taken care of? It's very easy to dismiss a point because of how it's presented, I get it, but the original thread from Billy *did* ask how users can realistically help. Being unable to submit diffs leaves us with no other option than maintaining our own local trees and making threads like this in the hope that someone with commit access will descend from above to help the community.

On 11/3/21 10:47, Yaro Kasear via arch-general wrote:

Can we get this transphobe off this list, already?

They're already showing an unwillingness to say something productive and now they're just shitting over entire classes of people.

Seconded, fwiw.   It is clear that they the "political" angle is just a way to have a project tacitly agree with them rather than a project that "stays out of it." -Sam

I don't feel bad about smearing or canceling bigots. Fuck off. Yaro On 11/3/21 1:23 PM, Ody Ν via arch-general wrote:

Στις Τετ, 3 Νοε 2021 στις 7:55 μ.μ., ο/η Sam Mulvey via arch-general < arch-general@lists.archlinux.org> έγραψε:

...

On 11/3/21 10:47, Yaro Kasear via arch-general wrote:

...

Can we get this transphobe off this list, already? Yeah, do that. Smear and cancel whomever won't agree with your own opinion, sounds very tolerant and inclusive.

...

Seconded, fwiw.

It's worth shit, and I'm only using this word because I saw it written (along with "fuck") by some privileged Arch dev or TU in this thread.

Perhaps this situation can also explain why some Arch staff had ample time to impose a fuzzy CoC instead of updating packages. Amirite?

Hi, everybody, just another Arch user here (also other distros user in fact), very thankful of all the excellent services this excellent project has brought me, freely (in every sense), for many years now, from the OS to the wiki, through the repos and community help. Seems to me that Arch has some of the difficulties any project of its kind has, so, nothing surprising until here. If anyone want to help I think the normal path is to ask how can I help and then wait for the answer and try to fulfill it. Otherwise, you can always put your hands at work in any way you decide and then offer what you choose to and just wait if your offering is accepted or not..., in the end, FLOSS will never stop nobody from forking. All this in a very rational and calmed fashion, putting gentleness and respect in a very first place, I suppose. By the other hand, mixing this technical issues with personal, sexual, gender, whatever other issues makes the conversation noisy and erratic. That subjects should have (if necessary) its own thread, I think. Patience, understanding, good luck and thanks to everybody. Sorry for adding my two cents of noise. ;) Kind regards.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, November 4th, 2021 at 12:27 AM, Emil Lundberg via arch-general wrote:

Trans rights is politics

Exactly, and it has no place in technical (programming, software) list.

However, human rights (including trans rights) and equality is the one political topic that is not up for debate. Opposing them is wrong ...

No. Just a remind: this is technical list devoted to Arch Linux. Any kind of political agenda (including LGBT rights, left-liberal political agenda in general) is offtopic here. I am surprised this thread is not closed: many threads were closed for a lesser offtopic bloat.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, November 4th, 2021 at 7:28 AM, Ralf Mardorf via arch-general wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 06:27:19 +0000, Maxim Fomin via arch-general wrote:

...

Any kind of political agenda (including LGBT rights, left-liberal

political agenda in general) is offtopic here.

Yes, but ...

Then any such discussion is offtopic, including discussing 'intolerant subscribers which are offended by human rights'.

On 04/11/2021 09:42, Ralf Mardorf via arch-general wrote:

On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 08:25:23 +0000, Maxim Fomin via arch-general wrote:

...

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Thursday, November 4th, 2021 at 7:28 AM, Ralf Mardorf via arch-general wrote:

...

On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 06:27:19 +0000, Maxim Fomin via arch-general wrote:

...

Any kind of political agenda (including LGBT rights, left-liberal

political agenda in general) is offtopic here.

Yes, but ...

Then any such discussion is offtopic, including discussing 'intolerant subscribers which are offended by human rights'.

I agree, but those are the subscribers bringing up this topic again, so they should expect a corrective reply. To my knowledge the distribution _never_ changed the logo to a rainbow or rainbow coloured Arch logo, hence there's nothing to talk about at all.

The very point is that

"human rights (including trans rights) and equality is the one political topic that is not up for debate. Opposing them _is wrong_, and no amount of debate will change that." - Emil Lundberg

IMHO people who can't accept human rights and who wish to exclude people from public, should stop wining, if they are unwanted, especially if they bring up such a topic in the first place.

I for one will filter out this thread and continue to agree with human rights, but ban all those who are against human rights.

Please stop this thread, and move on. You have made your point clear.

El mié, 3 nov 2021 a las 9:28, Morten Linderud via arch-general (< arch-general@lists.archlinux.org>) escribió:

https://repology.org/repositories/statistics

7909 updated packages, 84.9%, 1393 outdated packages, 15.0%.

A 15% not is a _small percentage_. IMHO I do not think it is a negligible value. -- Óscar García Amor | ogarcia at moire.org | http://ogarcia.me

Hi Antonio,

I'll just point out that this number is completely meaningless, for the simple reason that it counts *pkgnames* and not *pkgbases*. So, for instance, firefox-developer-edition contributes almost 100 packages to the total count.

Would an accurate count of how many pkgbases are flagged as out of date, charted as how long they've been flagged, be interesting enough to spend the effort creating it? Could the data then be recorded over time so the change can be observed. This might then assuage concerns that ‘Arch is dying!’ or help highlight times when there's a dip in maintenance and decide what should be tried to help. Perhaps the historical data is already present, e.g. flag changes are recorded by date rather than just current state, and so that can be trawled to give us that over-time view today. -- Cheers, Ralph.