Hi Pierre and others, thank you for your replies. Thomas Bächler:

By reading manpages (readily available on the internet), an online sha256 calculator and some brain function, you can easily solve this without a Linux computer.

I know I could have solved it, as could have every other Arch user. All I'm saying is that while I understand the necessity of a good captcha, I found this one to be over the top. It's that kind of humor that I can't appreciate after hours of fiddling around with a broken system. I wanted to register for a forum, not find out where to best calculate SHA sums. Pierre Schmitz:

I implemented this "captcha" some years ago as we had massive spam and troll problems. We are not just fighting spam bots but actual humans here. [...]

Ok, I didn't imagine you actually had severe troll problems, and I understand that not many trolls would go ahead and try to solve *this* captcha. In that respect I totally understand why it has to be so "difficult". I don't have a suggestion right now but I thank you for being open about it and I hope you all can understand my frustration. Thanks :) FE

On 02/10/2014 10:48 AM, Feliz Xett wrote:

Hi Pierre and others,

thank you for your replies.

Thomas Bächler:

...

By reading manpages (readily available on the internet), an online sha256 calculator and some brain function, you can easily solve this without a Linux computer.

I know I could have solved it, as could have every other Arch user. All I'm saying is that while I understand the necessity of a good captcha, I found this one to be over the top. It's that kind of humor that I can't appreciate after hours of fiddling around with a broken system. I wanted to register for a forum, not find out where to best calculate SHA sums.

Pierre Schmitz:

...

I implemented this "captcha" some years ago as we had massive spam and troll problems. We are not just fighting spam bots but actual humans here. [...]

Ok, I didn't imagine you actually had severe troll problems, and I understand that not many trolls would go ahead and try to solve *this* captcha. In that respect I totally understand why it has to be so "difficult".

I don't have a suggestion right now but I thank you for being open about it and I hope you all can understand my frustration.

This is a classic example of the balance that must be struck to keep a list, forum, whatever usable in today's perverted world of commercial and nefarious bots and spiders that work to crack and exploit every process available on the internet. I can sympathize with, and understand, Feliz's frustration when faced with a non-working arch install, turning to the forum for help only to be whipsawed with a non-standard captcha. (I know I wouldn't automatically think about on-line web-based shasum calculators) I have also learned that Pierre and the rest of the Arch developers usually do things for good reasons and in a very thought out way (once you understand what or why they did what they did) I do not have the answer, but would simply suggest when things like this are implemented, normal human nature and reaction should be considered and something as simple as a note dropped underneath the widget (or whatever) giving succinct information needed to navigate further. In the case of this captcha, something simple like the following would suffice: ** this captcha can be solved from the command line or with on-line tools. I think the Arch captcha is a very clever, solution, but as this issue has exposed, it is not without its downside. As always - great job and thanks Archdevs, and for the rest of us, just remember that with Arch, there is probably a really good reason behind whatever challenge you are facing. (mostly) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.

I don't think that using a computer command is suitable to avoid computer bots. They can easily read the captcha, solve it (just execute the command) and that's it. I've seen graphical captcha, but not with numbers and letters, but with games or with photos. I don't remember the names right now, but google does. The downside, is that it requires flash player... On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Pierre Schmitz wrote:

Am 10.02.2014 15:42, schrieb Feliz Xett:

...

Hi all!

I hope it's ok to bother this list with this question/suggestion/rant about the forum registration process.

Hi,

I implemented this "captcha" some years ago as we had massive spam and troll problems. We are not just fighting spam bots but actual humans here. These typical graphical captchas with distorted text can only be solved by computers there days (such irony). I also tried textual questions like "Who invented Arch Linux?"; but as this can be easily solved by Wikipedia/Google, it did not hold for long.

So far the current method works fine, the vast majority of Arch users is able to bypass it and our forums and wiki wont get spammed making our moderators live a little easier.

I am open for suggestions though, to solve this issue in a more elegant way. (also note that someone needs to actually implement this then)

Greetings,

Pierre

-- Pierre Schmitz, https://pierre-schmitz.com

Did that work for you? My result was different on my linux box at work. What does `uname` report in cygwin? On 02/10/2014 12:14 PM, Vinicius Rezende wrote:

...or Cygwin

http://www.viniciusrezende.com.br/pub/cygcaptcha.png (did it right now @ work)

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Nowaker wrote:

...

Could this please please please be replaced with a real captcha? If any captcha is needed, I prefer copy-paste-enter captcha like this instead of some weird recaptchas. If you are on Windows, go get a free shell account. ;)

-- Kind regards, Damian Nowak StratusHost www.AtlasHost.eu

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Vinicius Rezende wrote:

...or Cygwin

http://www.viniciusrezende.com.br/pub/cygcaptcha.png (did it right now @ work)

Except you need to replace "$(uname)" with "Linux", otherwise you won't get the right hash.

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Jeremy Nicoll - ml archlinux wrote:

Feliz Xett wrote:

...

I've been using arch for a couple of months now and I'm very happy with it. Today, I somewhat broke my box so I was excited to post my first question to the forums at bbs.archlinux.org. On the bottom of the registration page there was a very clever "captcha". The question was:

What is the output of "date -u +%V$(uname)|sha256sum|sed 's/\W//g'"?

I've been lurking on this maillist for maybe a year, after reading somewhere that Arch might be a good solution for me as a linux newbie. I have some experience of Win XP, much more of RISC OS (the ARM/Archimedes OS) and about 20 years of experience of IBM's VM/SP and MVS (now z/OS) OSes, as both a systems programmer and a programmer.

Before I read this thread I could only guess what this command was going to do, and was puzzled at how a command whose output I assumed would vary (because dates do, and 'uname' looks user-specific) on different people's systems was going to produce a useful value; I'd assumed that the sed part probably throws away most/all of the results of the sha '256 passed in to it. But, without a working linux to evaluate it, I would have been stuck. For example, I did not know that web-accessible linux systems exist...

I dare say I would have found out what it does, somehow, because I'm old-fashioned enough to use usenet and mail-lists for seeking help, but for many younger people, forums are the only thing they know. But it would have annoyed me that I'd need to waste time solving this side-issue when all I'd have wanted was to solve whatever my own problem was. Unlike the view that some of the people posting here seem to have - that anyone could solve this quickly with a bit of poking around on the internet - I'm not so sure. I could see myself wasting a day or two quite easily. And maybe I'd not try, but go somewhere else instead.

It seems to me that this captcha stops potential linux users, as opposed to those who do have a working system, from joining your forum.

-- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

The forums and wiki had a serious infestation of human spammers. This captcha has stopped all spam on the wiki since it was implemented. I imagine the forum has seen a similar result but I don't know for sure.

On 11 February 2014 00:00, Jeremy Nicoll - ml archlinux wrote:

I've been lurking on this maillist for maybe a year, after reading somewhere that Arch might be a good solution for me as a linux newbie.

It seems to me that this captcha stops potential linux users, as opposed to

I disagree with your source. If anything, Arch Linux is aimed at experienced Linux users, who at least know the basic ins-and-outs of a Linux-based operating system, and can solve their own problems (either by first-hand knowledge, or by researching). That's not to say that newcomers to Linux can't use Arch, they just shouldn't expect to have their hand held and be spoonfed solutions to all their problems. those who do have a working system, from joining your forum. Arch has no aims to be popular. WorMzy

On 02/10/2014 05:16 PM, Jeremy Nicoll - ml archlinux wrote:

WorMzy Tykashi wrote:

...

On 11 February 2014 00:00, Jeremy Nicoll - ml archlinux wrote:

...

I've been lurking on this maillist for maybe a year, after reading somewhere that Arch might be a good solution for me as a linux newbie. I disagree with your source. If anything, Arch Linux is aimed at experienced Linux users... I don't think that that is the impression that one gets from the Archlinux website, where it starts with:

"You've reached the website for Arch Linux, a lightweight and flexible Linux distribution that tries to Keep It Simple."

Keep it Simple does not refer to "easy" or "newcomer" friendly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/The_Arch_Way

but I see that the last paragraph of the 'About' page ends by saying:

"designed to fit the needs of the competent Linux user."

which seems to echo what you (and others) have said.

I think what attracted me was probably the stated lack of GUI config utilities, with most stuff configured by editing text files - it's what I was used to in eg MVS. And from what I've seen of the linuxen that attempt to look like Windows, there's too many GUI config utilities that only expose a small proportion of the options that a config file could contain. I also greatly dislike GUI config utilities (in any OS) that destroy any comments or change histories which one might have placed in those text files.

Also, the 'rolling release' approach sits better with me than the potentially catastrophic approach where one is forced to upgrade the whole OS every so often.

...

who at least know the basic ins-and-outs of a Linux-based operating system I know very little about linux, but a great deal about MVS. I've never expected to learn an new OS quickly but instead to learn and end up understanding how the successive layers of the OS work.

...

...

It seems to me that this captcha stops potential linux users, as opposed to those who do have a working system, from joining your forum. Arch has no aims to be popular. Hmm.

What is confusing about that? The devs have no desire to be popular or the coolest kid on the block or to be on every box in the world.

On 02/11/2014 11:00 AM, Mauro Santos wrote:

On 11-02-2014 01:48, Don deJuan wrote:

...

What is confusing about that? The devs have no desire to be popular or the coolest kid on the block or to be on every box in the world.

I'm not sure, I've seen a world domination plan mentioned a few times but I don't know the status of that.

[1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/DeveloperWiki#Organization

If you take the domination of the world, moon and so on seriously you might want to try and put it on your toaster or a badger ;) https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_is_the_best http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20040405/badger.shtml

On 02/10/2014 05:16 PM, Jeremy Nicoll - ml archlinux wrote:

WorMzy Tykashi wrote:

...

On 11 February 2014 00:00, Jeremy Nicoll - ml archlinux wrote:

...

I've been lurking on this maillist for maybe a year, after reading somewhere that Arch might be a good solution for me as a linux newbie. I disagree with your source. If anything, Arch Linux is aimed at experienced Linux users... I don't think that that is the impression that one gets from the Archlinux website, where it starts with:

"You've reached the website for Arch Linux, a lightweight and flexible Linux distribution that tries to Keep It Simple."

but I see that the last paragraph of the 'About' page ends by saying:

"designed to fit the needs of the competent Linux user."

which seems to echo what you (and others) have said.

I think what attracted me was probably the stated lack of GUI config utilities, with most stuff configured by editing text files - it's what I was used to in eg MVS. And from what I've seen of the linuxen that attempt to look like Windows, there's too many GUI config utilities that only expose a small proportion of the options that a config file could contain. I also greatly dislike GUI config utilities (in any OS) that destroy any comments or change histories which one might have placed in those text files.

Also, the 'rolling release' approach sits better with me than the potentially catastrophic approach where one is forced to upgrade the whole OS every so often.

...

who at least know the basic ins-and-outs of a Linux-based operating system I know very little about linux, but a great deal about MVS. I've never expected to learn an new OS quickly but instead to learn and end up understanding how the successive layers of the OS work.

...

...

It seems to me that this captcha stops potential linux users, as opposed to those who do have a working system, from joining your forum. Arch has no aims to be popular. Hmm.

Sorry forgot one more link http://people.apache.org/~fhanik/kiss.html http://people.apache.org/%7Efhanik/kiss.html HTH clarify the KISS statement

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 01:16:15AM +0000, Jeremy Nicoll - ml archlinux wrote:

WorMzy Tykashi wrote:

...

On 11 February 2014 00:00, Jeremy Nicoll - ml archlinux wrote:

...

I've been lurking on this maillist for maybe a year, after reading somewhere that Arch might be a good solution for me as a linux newbie.

I disagree with your source. If anything, Arch Linux is aimed at experienced Linux users...

I don't think that that is the impression that one gets from the Archlinux website, where it starts with:

"You've reached the website for Arch Linux, a lightweight and flexible Linux distribution that tries to Keep It Simple."

but I see that the last paragraph of the 'About' page ends by saying:

"designed to fit the needs of the competent Linux user."

which seems to echo what you (and others) have said.

It's all too common for many folks unfamiliar with Arch to confuse "Keeping it simple" with "making it easy." Read the wiki page entitled *The Arch Way*. "Simplicity" with respect to Arch refers to system design, not to ease of use or entry to the community.

...

Arch has no aims to be popular.

Hmm.

No, that's correct. Spend enough time on the forums or in the mailing list or wiki, and you'll get the impression that a "race to the bottom" is one of the things the Arch devs and community actively seek to prevent. For an OS to be popular, it logically needs to play to the lowest common denominator. Arch exists precisely to for users who *no not want that*; it exists precisely to be a niche distro. There seems to be an aura surrounding Arch within the Linux community at large that Arch is somehow "elite" or "hardcore," and that by using Arch you've somehow gained serious nerd cred. It's that sort of perspective that attracts help vampires, and it's that sort of attitude that the puzzle on the forum registration page seeks to weed out. People who bump into that wall and then complain that Arch doesn't make things as "simple" as the 5000 other distributions out there have missed the point entirely. On Mon Feb 10 12:20:45 EST 2014 Kyle wrote:

I'll take a little frustration of non-linux using normal human beings over a captcha that completely excludes visually impaired normal human beings any day.

I can understand your concern and applaud your consideration, but which of those two groups do you suppose would flood the forums if the barrier to entry were lowered? Let's be frank: The number of visually impaired users is, always has been and always will be outstripped by the number of help vampires. If a visually impaired Arch user needs help with a complex setup, that user can still consult the wiki and mailing list without the same barrier present on the forums, as anyone who's used all three can attest. I don't know what solutions (if any) exist for IRC users who are visually impaired, but that's a third option. Really, what you're talking about here is letting in an unwanted majority to avoid upsetting an otherwise acceptable, but extremely miniscule minority. There's no simple solution to such a conundrum, but there are multiple avenues of communication in the Arch community. There just seems to be something about online BBS that attracts the intellectually lazy in a manner that other online communication media do not.

(Top-posting because I'm not replying to anyone in particular.) One thing that we could do is suggest registering for the forum in the Beginner's Guide. The logic being that you should do it while your box is still working, just in case. On Feb 11, 2014 8:27 AM, "Curtis Shimamoto" wrote:

...

On Mon Feb 10 12:20:45 EST 2014 Kyle wrote:

...

I'll take a little frustration of non-linux using normal human beings over a captcha that completely excludes visually impaired normal human beings any day.

I can understand your concern and applaud your consideration, but which of those two groups do you suppose would flood the forums if the barrier to entry were lowered? Let's be frank: The number of visually impaired users is, always has been and always will be outstripped by the number of help vampires. If a visually impaired Arch user needs help with a complex setup, that user can still consult the wiki and mailing list without the same barrier present on the forums, as anyone who's used all three can attest. I don't know what solutions (if any) exist for IRC users who are visually impaired, but that's a

On 02/11/14 at 10:11am, Bigby James wrote: third

...

option.

Really, what you're talking about here is letting in an unwanted majority to avoid upsetting an otherwise acceptable, but extremely miniscule minority. There's no simple solution to such a conundrum, but there are multiple avenues of communication in the Arch community. There just seems to be something about online BBS that attracts the intellectually lazy in a manner that other online communication media do not.

I think you've missed what Kyle is saying here. From what I understand (as a non-blind user), traditional captchas that are super hard to read and easily deciphered by computers are what tend to not be usable by the visually impaired.

The captcha that we currently have should be great for the visually impaired using some of the available linux tools such as espeakup.

-- Curtis Shimamoto

According to Curtis Shimamoto: # I think you've missed what Kyle is saying here. From what I understand # (as a non-blind user), traditional captchas that are super hard to read # and easily deciphered by computers are what tend to not be usable by the # visually impaired. # # The captcha that we currently have should be great for the visually # impaired using some of the available linux tools such as espeakup. The above is exactly what I was trying to say. I specifically meant that the current solution is much better than a flash-based or photo-based captcha for that exact reason. It's easy for me and other visually impaired users to be able to solve, and I actually did so using available tools with much less headache than I've had even with things like Google's audio captcha, which is as hard for some people to be able to hear as the picture-based captchas are for blind people to see. As I said, the current solution on the Arch BBS is by far the best I've used, and does the best to keep unwanted spammers out while still allowing blind and visually impaired users to participate without undue difficulty. At this point, unless someone truly has a better idea, I wouldn't change a thing about the current forum registration. ~Kyle http://kyle.tk/ -- "Kyle? ... She calls her cake, Kyle?" Out of This World, season 2 episode 21 - "The Amazing Evie"