On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:

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On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

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I've been doing things to attract users to Arch. Whether they are newbs or not, because I want people to learn. As long as you have willingness and determination to learn, that is the important thing. The resources are out there, people just need to look, and I'm willing to add to those resources.

You aren't adding anything beneficial by telling others that their comments are equal to troll statements, when this is clearly not true.

Attracting users to Arch is not a stated goal, this has been repeated many times in various fora. Arch is only for a certain type of users, those who are willing and able to learn.

I'm not knocking your effort, but a quick glance at those resources you've provided indicate that you're trying to make it very easy to get to using Arch, and I don't think that's beneficial for Arch or its community. There are other distributions for 'easy-to-use', Arch should not be that. Not because of any type of elitism, but because Arch's niche is about control and simplicity, and making it 'newbie-friendly' (whatever that means) would compromise that.

Splitting the thread (sorry I use gmail, so it won't split for you guys on mutt or whatever) to reduce the 'corruption' of original thread, not that I think it'll make a difference though.

You are misunderstanding my goals and what I've said.

I said that I'm trying to help people find and use Arch. Whether they are expert users from other distros, or they are Noobies who are "willing to read documentation". If a person is a noob, that doesn't mean that they can't use Arch, they just have to be motivated individuals who are willing to seek and learn for themselves. I am facilitating resources, documentations, etc, to lower the barrier to entry, while at the same time giving information that is in the documentation, in a video form.

So we completely agree, the point of Arch, and us, isn't to just go around and find noobies that don't want to learn for themselves but want others to do the work for them, but to find people that are willing to learn, seek for themselves, and contribute back to the community. This does not segregate "Noobs who want others to do things for them", "Noobs who are willing to be independent and learn for themselves", and "Expert users from other Distros who want to learn how to use Arch".

-- Jonathan Vasquez

BTW, If you watch the series I made today to help people who are willing to learn come and try Arch, I've explicitly explained the Arch goals, and who it is and isn't for. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVx0xOO5tqg @ 1:30. -- Jonathan Vasquez

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Pham Bao Trung wrote:

@Jonathan Vasquez

I must say that I totally support your point of view. I have seen some TU/devs/geeky users showed bad temper, mocking on newb at #archlinux who really came there to seek for help and wanted to switch to Arch. They just made them go away rudely. Their point is that Arch is not for newb.

It's sad it happens, but it happens in every community and I have to accept that. Just because there are a few bad raisins or arrogant people in the community, doesn't mean that I should just give up on the entire distro. All I'm saying is that the people in the distro definitely have an obligation to maintain the high standards of conduct (Etiquette) and Morality. So we can all treat each other with dignity and respect, as fellow human beings, volunteers, contributors, maintainers, and users. @Don Juan Don't forget that Elitism for the most part automatically involves arrogance. If a person is very smart, they will tend to learn towards being arrogant. It's not because a person wants to be arrogant though, but because naturally, as people gain knowledge, they logically believe that they are smarter than other people in society in that specific area. A very logical thought. The only thing is that we have to control and be mindful of our arrogance and elitism when dealing with each other and others, because other people (even if they aren't pro), doesn't mean that they don't have anything useful or correct to say. Think of Doctors. Sometimes when you feel sick, you go online and you try to do your due diligence. Trying to find out what is wrong with you (Diagnosing yourself), even though you aren't a doctor. But you try to do it anyways because searching for information, and finding a solution tends to be something that us hackers have haha (How can we be using a distro as great as Arch, and not be used to searching for information and solutions? :] ). Once you find the information, you feel pretty good about it. Of course since you know you aren't a doctor, you clearly know that you might be wrong, and keep an open mind about your current solution, until you go see the doctor. Once you go see the doctor and try to explain to them your research and theories, some of the doctors respond very negative towards you, basically down playing your intelligence because you didn't go to eight years of medical school. Just because a person didn't go to medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life. Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose :). -- Jonathan Vasquez

On 4 January 2012 16:25, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

Think of Doctors. Sometimes when you feel sick, you go online and you try to do your due diligence. Trying to find out what is wrong with you (Diagnosing yourself), even though you aren't a doctor. But you try to do it anyways because searching for information, and finding a solution tends to be something that us hackers have haha (How can we be using a distro as great as Arch, and not be used to searching for information and solutions? :] ). Once you find the information, you feel pretty good about it. Of course since you know you aren't a doctor, you clearly know that you might be wrong, and keep an open mind about your current solution, until you go see the doctor. Once you go see the doctor and try to explain to them your research and theories, some of the doctors respond very negative towards you, basically down playing your intelligence because you didn't go to eight years of medical school. Just because a person didn't go to medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.

I like this, +1 :) Once I was in this exact situation, and I couldn't punch the guy because I didn't have an MBBS to support myself. No offence to you doctors; you have a respectable profession, but sometimes you have to realise there are patients who could've joined you in medical school if they wanted to. In the same manner, we shouldn't discredit a computer user just because he's never had much experience with that many operating systems, that is to say there are actually people who jump straight to Arch Linux from Windows and face no problems. -- GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

On 01/04/2012 05:52 AM, Lorenzo Bandieri wrote:

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Think of Doctors. Sometimes when you feel sick, you go online and you try to do your due diligence. Trying to find out what is wrong with you (Diagnosing yourself), even though you aren't a doctor. But you try to do it anyways because searching for information, and finding a solution tends to be something that us hackers have haha (How can we be using a distro as great as Arch, and not be used to searching for information and solutions? :] ). Once you find the information, you feel pretty good about it. Of course since you know you aren't a doctor, you clearly know that you might be wrong, and keep an open mind about your current solution, until you go see the doctor. Once you go see the doctor and try to explain to them your research and theories, some of the doctors respond very negative towards you, basically down playing your intelligence because you didn't go to eight years of medical school. Just because a person didn't go to medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.

Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose :).

-- Jonathan Vasquez +1

I can somewhat relate to this situation since I am a med student and I use linux (currently arch and gentoo). When first installed linux I was an absolute computer/internet illiterate; today my knowledge is better, though obviously limited. I admit that in the past I may have asked really dumb question, but from my point of view, experienced linux users often forget how difficult is to enter into a field about which you know absolutely nothing. Yes, there are howtos, documentation, man pages... but at the very beginning, it's not that easy.

Ignorance should never be an excuse for a rude response, at least when ignorance isn't accompanied by the obvious willingness to remain ignorant. Knowledge doesn't imply nor require arrogance or rudeness. If not, every person that is knowledgeable in a field could mistreat everyone else who is not as equally competent in that particular area. I wonder what these unpolite linux gurus would think if one day I'd answered them something like "Are you kidding me? Seriously, you are asking me if your contact lenses can *get lost behind your eyeball*? If you had RTMF you'd know this is impossible. Now GTFO, and next time *google it*, for the love of God... noob."

Just the thoughts of a computer ignorant.

Lorenzo

+1 I would love to go to a doctor that is like that, I think more should be like house LOL

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 03:25:40 -0500 Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

[...]

Just because a person didn't go to medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.

Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose :).

Please understand that what you are talking about is not research, but an accumulation of information==noise from dumb bloggers. What they teach in medschool is to use your brain, not the collective knowledge. If you are so confident in your self-diagnosis, just talk to the doctor and let him challenge your reasoning -- you'll see that even if your conclusion was correct, this was a shear luck. Wikipedia may be good for trivial things (diagnosing a running nose in your terms) or reading about the comparison between email clients, but is completely misleading in more sophisiticated problems. This is because people who could actually improve it are way to busy / don't care to do so. -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key ID: 164B5A6D Key fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Don Juan wrote:

On 01/04/2012 08:14 AM, Leonid Isaev wrote:

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On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 03:25:40 -0500 Jonathan Vasquez  wrote:

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[...]

Just because a person didn't go to medical school, doesn't mean that they can research and learn anything in the field of medicine. That logic is ridiculous, and as we have and will experience in our lives, applies towards other areas of life.

Those are my worthless cents as well I suppose :).

Please understand that what you are talking about is not research, but an accumulation of information==noise from dumb bloggers.

What they teach in medschool is to use your brain, not the collective knowledge. If you are so confident in your self-diagnosis, just talk to the doctor and let him challenge your reasoning -- you'll see that even if your conclusion was correct, this was a shear luck.

Wikipedia may be good for trivial things (diagnosing a running nose in your terms) or reading about the comparison between email clients, but is completely misleading in more sophisiticated problems. This is because people who could actually improve it are way to busy / don't care to do so.

Any chance we can all drop this stuff now and maybe share some advice/help on the OP question or other ones on the list currently, I know I would happily take even some flaming now on my battery question :P

@Don Juan Lol at your House comment. @Angel Velasquez It's ok, I perfectly understand that a person can get confused when similar names come up. It probably has happened to all of us at least once :). I also agree that the Linux community repeats the same info over and over again, and that it gets annoying. That's one of the reasons I was attracted to Arch. Because instead of a person having to repeat themselves, they could easily just write a well written documentation, and send people to read them. While at the other end, the asking user could finally find a well written document, that would actually be able to help them, because it was well written in the first place. It benefits both parties. I also do not like to repeat myself, and strive to write good documentation once, so that people will understand it better. That's one of the reasons why I make Youtube videos. Visual learning is a great way to teach someone. Especially the people that are too comfortable to read, which they will have to get over it. I don't believe I am more valuable, or more important than anyone else. I signed up to these mailing lists about a week ago, there is no where to signing up to the Arch mailing list where it says "You must bottom post". Some communities top post by default, some do inline posting, and some do bottom posting. It's something that a person has to learn and adapt to while they are in the community. If you look at all my posts in the last 3-4+ days, they are all now written in bottom-post format. There may be 1 or 2 that slipt since I switch between my phone and computer, and I have to disable top quotes, etc. Also I didn't pull the "oh look I have more contributions then you card". If you look at my post, I said that my comments are valuable and are not noob-irrelevant-spam-troll like comments because I'm an actual Arch linux user. Not just some random person. I showed some of my contributions so that you can understand that I am an Archer, I am a contributing user, and I legitimiately card about the future of Arch Linux, therefore my constructive criticism to not just OS design, but also to Etiquette behavior should be heard (Doesn't have to be followed, but at least listened to). That's how democracy works. By listening to it's citizens. Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages for inclusion into the community repo. So I hope I cleared that I wasn't trying to compare my contributions to anybody else. I'm sure, proud, and happy that we have members like Gaetan and you in our community because I'm sure that you also help, want to continue helping, and love Arch linux just as any other Archer. I don't know how said Arch is the natural replacement for Ubuntu either. I did say multiple times, in my videos, and in these posts that as long as a person is willing to read documentation, that it doesn't matter what there starting position is. Doesn't matter if they are a noob, or a pro user from another Distro or OS. The important thing is that they are willing to read the documentation in order to further their knowledge. So I completely agree with you as well Angel, and it's exactly what I'm promoting and have been saying. I'm glad you have helped a lot of people in this community, and I'm sure you will continue to do so. I'm not happy that you or anyone else has to receive Troll comments. Now I believe that as a person with an @archlinux domain in your email, you are not just a regular Archer, but you of course are an esteemed member in the community. Therefore as a person with authority, you have to be a roll model for everyone else. I'm not saying you have to take crap from anyone, but I am saying that you definitely can't be making "troll-like comments". That doesn't look good, especially when an outsider comes to look at Arch and sees people with power trolling on it's users. They will surely leave, no matter how noob, or pro they are. You don't have to apologize to me. Drama, and correct etiquette behavior are two different things. Thanks, I will continue to learn :). @Leonid Isaev Of course, a person definitely has to use his/her brain when reading anything online. That's why I said we have to be careful with what we read, and why people need to keep an open mind when they read the information and go to speak to their doctors about it. There will most likely be a flaw, and the doctor will need to correct that flaw and logic. It's also the doctor's responsability at that point to not act arrogantly and try to make the patient feel stupid for them trying to self-diagnose themselves. Life's a two way street, and there are responsabilities at both ends. -- Jonathan Vasquez

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Karol Blazewicz wrote:

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

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That's how democracy works. By listening to it's citizens. Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages for inclusion into the community repo

Errr, no. It's still up to devs and TUs to include a package in the repos. Also https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette#Respect_The_Staff Members of The Forum Team have been chosen for their ability to exercise consistently good judgment and shall have the final say. Note that this forum is not run as a democracy.

Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included. You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let everyone in the community have read/write access to the community repo, but the packages that the community members voted for in the AUR, are being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me, and if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect specifically. -- Jonathan Vasquez

On Wednesday 04 Jan 2012 16:16:45 Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

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Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included. You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let everyone in the community have read/write access to the community repo, but the packages that the community members voted for in the AUR, are being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me, and if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect specifically.

Hitler was also chosen because of his intelligence and other credentials. How does this relate? Just because a person is elected because of "perceived" credentials that you can obviously prove that they have, does not mean that the person will continue to act in that fashion. Hopefully they will.

24+ messages in a thread which itself is a split from its original. Nice to see that Godwin's Law [1] still applies on "proper" mailing lists in 2012 ;-) Happy new year folks! Pete. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

On 01/04/2012 05:11 PM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

On Jan 4, 2012 6:26 PM, "Peter Lewis" wrote:

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On Wednesday 04 Jan 2012 16:16:45 Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

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Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included. You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let everyone in the community have read/write access to the community repo, but the packages that the community members voted for in the AUR, are being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me, and if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect specifically. Hitler was also chosen because of his intelligence and other credentials. How does this relate? Just because a person is elected because of "perceived" credentials that you can obviously prove that they have, does not mean that the person will continue to act in that fashion. Hopefully they will. 24+ messages in a thread which itself is a split from its original. Nice to see that Godwin's Law [1] still applies on "proper" mailing lists in 2012 ;-) Happy new year folks!

Pete.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Lol Pete. I was actually speaking to Ross about this law when he brought it to my attention. I didn't even know it existed and I normally tend to refrain from bringing Hitler into a conversion. Maybe I should have brought a politician that always promises things, but once elected changes his views and attitudes.

Happy new year as well. Nixon ? LOL ;P

On 05/01/12 07:14, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Karol Blazewicz wrote:

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On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

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That's how democracy works. By listening to it's citizens. Same goes with the AUR, and when people vote for packages for inclusion into the community repo

Errr, no. It's still up to devs and TUs to include a package in the repos. Also https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette#Respect_The_Staff Members of The Forum Team have been chosen for their ability to exercise consistently good judgment and shall have the final say. Note that this forum is not run as a democracy.

Never said the entire community was a democracy, I did say thought that like a democracy people vote for the packages to be included. You are right, that the Trusted Users have the final say on what packages get included, I never said otherwise. We obviously can't let everyone in the community have read/write access to the community repo, but the packages that the community members voted for in the AUR, are being looked at by the Trusted Users. That's not a problem to me, and if anything is a sign of a Representative Democracy. In the AUR aspect specifically.

Are you sure TUs pay attention to votes (apart from the minimum required number)? I always just pulled the packages I wanted...

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Allan McRae wrote: Are you sure TUs pay attention to votes (apart from the minimum required

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number)?  I always just pulled the packages I wanted...

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_User_Repository A good number of new packages that enter the official repositories start in the AUR. In the AUR, users are able to contribute their own package builds (PKGBUILD and related files). The AUR community has the ability to vote for or against packages in the AUR. If a package becomes popular enough -- provided it has a compatible license and good packaging technique -- it may be entered into the [community] repository (directly accessible by pacman or abs). -- Jonathan Vasquez

On 01/03/2012 07:25 PM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:

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I've been doing things to attract users to Arch. Whether they are newbs or not, because I want people to learn. As long as you have willingness and determination to learn, that is the important thing. The resources are out there, people just need to look, and I'm willing to add to those resources.

You aren't adding anything beneficial by telling others that their comments are equal to troll statements, when this is clearly not true. Attracting users to Arch is not a stated goal, this has been repeated many times in various fora. Arch is only for a certain type of users,

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote: those who are willing and able to learn.

I'm not knocking your effort, but a quick glance at those resources you've provided indicate that you're trying to make it very easy to get to using Arch, and I don't think that's beneficial for Arch or its community. There are other distributions for 'easy-to-use', Arch should not be that. Not because of any type of elitism, but because Arch's niche is about control and simplicity, and making it 'newbie-friendly' (whatever that means) would compromise that.

Splitting the thread (sorry I use gmail, so it won't split for you guys on mutt or whatever) to reduce the 'corruption' of original thread, not that I think it'll make a difference though. You are misunderstanding my goals and what I've said.

I said that I'm trying to help people find and use Arch. Whether they are expert users from other distros, or they are Noobies who are "willing to read documentation". If a person is a noob, that doesn't mean that they can't use Arch, they just have to be motivated individuals who are willing to seek and learn for themselves. I am facilitating resources, documentations, etc, to lower the barrier to entry, while at the same time giving information that is in the documentation, in a video form.

So we completely agree, the point of Arch, and us, isn't to just go around and find noobies that don't want to learn for themselves but want others to do the work for them, but to find people that are willing to learn, seek for themselves, and contribute back to the community. This does not segregate "Noobs who want others to do things for them", "Noobs who are willing to be independent and learn for themselves", and "Expert users from other Distros who want to learn how to use Arch".

Me being one of these Arch n00bs what attracted to me was the RTFM type of attitude before you ask something it should be about reading and educating ones self first before asking questions. It took me a few days to understand installing things properly and only posting one question to these boards about a miss understanding I had. Which I though the responses I got were great and quickly made me grasp my failure to. I learned a little more about the hooks statement that was made, but I do have to agree that if others are not allowed to contribute they have the same issues with a posting to the boards, then things may lag in finding a common cause that may not be obvious on the one single system. Am I way off thinking such a thing here? I also still don't see how his comments were Troll like at all. Maybe that's my n00b thinking in things. Elitism is one thing, but arrogance is childish and VERY common on most message boards in the Linux world. I value and understand Elitism, but throw in arrogance and its just a pissing match being started in my opinion. Just my worthless .02 :) Cheers people its a New Year, don't forget that :)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/01/12 09:54, Peter Cannon wrote:

On 04/01/12 03:25, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

Carry on doing what *you* want not what others want you to do. I too joined "The pain of making tea." that is Arch Linux due to the statement that used to be on display;

*Q)*When I run “pacman –sync” it comes up with “could not open sync database:reponame have you used –refresh yet?” but when I run pacman –refresh it does nothing?!

*A)*This error is due to your inability to read man pages. We recommend you try the pacman man page – it really is very useful.

I also agree that it's probably not for an absolute beginner, however if you can read a wiki or a forum then I see no reason why a so called n00b shouldn't give Arch a go.

I see no excuse for arrogance or rudeness people that do that can "Get off my lawn." thank you very much.

"There is *every* excuse for not knowing, there is *no* excuse for not asking."

#freedom

Usually when I go to a doctor he doesn't accurate his diagnostic .. maybe in 70% of the cases (as optimum) he have to ask proper information, and I have to give him, if I say "i don't know" too him so many times, he will try to figure out what I have and for sure that 70% of accuracy on his diagnostic will fail. What I wanted to say with this is, sometimes get bombed by a chain of mails with some non-sense info which can confuse a lot it's irrelevant, and as Jonathan and Javier (which I thought they're related or the same person at some point .. that happens with similar names, imagine somebody called for example Andrés Velásquez writting here i'd be confusing.) The problem is that in my point of view, we're sick of repeating stuff to somepeople, I usually ignore posts from top-posters since them confuse me a lot, that's why I said my troll comment, which in fact was accurated but not on the topic (comparing again with a doctor, imagine going to the doctor he's doing a complete exam to your body to determine why .. you have a hurt in your hand .. and he said something like .. "oh did you injured your knee before?". Again, the most funny part of this stuff was the thing when Jonathan believe he is so valuable than the rest of people who have to beg him to don't do top-posting. Seriously dude, I don't want to play the card of "see my mail address" or "google my name" in order to compare contributions, even .. it's funny that you want to compare your contributions with me or Gaetan .. we didn't that with you, and we're speaking as a user like you, we are not just developers of the project we are actually users, so it's totally pointless to play that card. Again, as i've saying before, i don't know who the hell said that the natural replacement of ubuntu is Arch .. out community is people who like to read, and people who like to investigate .. not people who like some magic recipes. Even if somepeople wrote some of these recipes for Arch, our distro try to teach the user, if you are willing to learn, a couple of troll comments it's part of the scenary, whining.. so please stop crying.. and start researching. That's said, i've been helping a lot of people in this community, i've discussed with lot of people too, and i got troll comments several times, despite my contributions of i've helped them in the past, i don't think in that deeply, i just let it go, my advice.. is when you don't like a reply.. just let it go. I won't say sorry if you feel offended, stop the drama. In fact i congratulate that you actually hhave learned something in this community (in this mailing list at least). Cheers. - -- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Arch Linux Developer / Trusted User Linux Counter: #359909 http://www.angvp.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPBGHbAAoJEEKh2xXsEzut0k4IAKw20e0tNZJEUGCZBLudBclH 1zPjR7Eai862Qds79lnfIaFQtIpEx4l0/mCD1dqwG1LHNp7KLLv6bfgjt1nXqbYK 3ikzLfppEc2bW8mOjyRwQcKPYZ9KsFiFshVT7NhEqSFnmxhfkBnzfV4MJj/qeLvJ a/DS6jNtUsD5oTfGDCYBQNGle74QVFWCP3B962Sy0GnIy0te0XnB9KmKt3aeN8Lk 3IpF9Oz1m8NSk6Mj3cK7lndshojjhXivo/F4BDm12/+IF0+d/550sEj8edfiydHz bvbUJtgcmj51F/ja0SBWRBWvRLRK4HZK4orjJiE3D4rvcFZ637YQHu+PXMbk0Pc= =+07S -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 4:25 AM, Jonathan Vasquez wrote:

You are misunderstanding my goals and what I've said.

I said that I'm trying to help people find and use Arch. Whether they are expert users from other distros, or they are Noobies who are "willing to read documentation". If a person is a noob, that doesn't mean that they can't use Arch, they just have to be motivated individuals who are willing to seek and learn for themselves. I am facilitating resources, documentations, etc, to lower the barrier to entry, while at the same time giving information that is in the documentation, in a video form.

So we completely agree, the point of Arch, and us, isn't to just go around and find noobies that don't want to learn for themselves but want others to do the work for them, but to find people that are willing to learn, seek for themselves, and contribute back to the community. This does not segregate "Noobs who want others to do things for them", "Noobs who are willing to be independent and learn for themselves", and "Expert users from other Distros who want to learn how to use Arch".

Haven't really been following this discussion or read your resources, but just wanted to add that I think that making information more accessible and easier to understand is a good thing, so keep it up. We should of course be wary of leading people into doing things without understanding them first (which seems to be the way things are done in e.g. the Ubuntu forums), but I guess that goes without saying. -t