[arch-general] New dual install iso -- Where the heck is arch-setup??
Guys, What happened to the arch setup autoinstaller script that guided you though the install process?? It was minimal, and worked very well to guide you through. Even helpful with raid installs after your arrays were assembled and partitioned. Now, unless I'm completely missing something, we a back to a total manual install with archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall. I've looked at the basic setup wiki and the install guide wiki and I don't see the friendly install tool referenced anywhere. So am I missing it, or are we just back to a manual install? (guessing where packages are /usr/bin, /usr/sbin or /sbin. On archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall, /usr/sbin is not in the default path, so typing dhcpcd as instructed in the wiki -- does nothing... I really liked the old arch installer. It was a fairly brain-dead install that nicely walked you though the install process with minimal keystrokes and choices required. Is that installer on the archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall image? If so where? (This is an arch client vbox install if that makes any difference...) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Am 04.08.2012 08:17, schrieb David C. Rankin:
Guys,
What happened to the arch setup autoinstaller script that guided you though the install process?? It was minimal, and worked very well to guide you through. Even helpful with raid installs after your arrays were assembled and partitioned. Now, unless I'm completely missing something, we a back to a total manual install with archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall. I've looked at the basic setup wiki and the install guide wiki and I don't see the friendly install tool referenced anywhere. So am I missing it, or are we just back to a manual install? (guessing where packages are /usr/bin, /usr/sbin or /sbin. On archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall, /usr/sbin is not in the default path, so typing dhcpcd as instructed in the wiki -- does nothing...
I really liked the old arch installer. It was a fairly brain-dead install that nicely walked you though the install process with minimal keystrokes and choices required. Is that installer on the archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall image? If so where?
(This is an arch client vbox install if that makes any difference...)
Use archboot if you need hand holding. greetings tpowa -- Tobias Powalowski Archlinux Developer & Package Maintainer (tpowa) http://www.archlinux.org tpowa@archlinux.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 08/04/2012 01:20 AM, Tobias Powalowski wrote:
Use archboot if you need hand holding.
greetings tpowa
No hand holding needed, just bewildered why Arch would ditch a tool that worked perfectly well. Further, the lack of an AIF type tool just makes Arch less likely to be tried as a distro when anyone choosing between which distro to try reads there is no installer for Arch. Arch is a very, very good distro, brilliant in many respects... and as such, one would expect that it would have at least a KISS type automated install. I just don't understand the logic in ditching a working tool. - -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAdV3cACgkQZMpuZ8Cyrcg6igCfVKu2F6XKgEMczobsxnYAewP8 d3YAnjUpr9c/wbIR2PXi4ZHGijU6V9r3 =fGzx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
"David C. Rankin" <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> writes:
On 08/04/2012 01:20 AM, Tobias Powalowski wrote:
Use archboot if you need hand holding.
greetings tpowa
No hand holding needed, just bewildered why Arch would ditch a tool that worked perfectly well. Further, the lack of an AIF type tool just makes Arch less likely to be tried as a distro when anyone choosing between which distro to try reads there is no installer for Arch. Arch is a very, very good distro, brilliant in many respects... and as such, one would expect that it would have at least a KISS type automated install.
I just don't understand the logic in ditching a working tool.
FWIW, I've been working on "fixing" aif (I just recently got grub-bios support working in it), although it's not clear to me yet whether it needs an entire re-write or if one of the other efforts like archboot would be better to focus on, or if one of the "port-aif-to-python" efforts would be. As it is, and as was pointed out in other places, aif was pretty broken. I feel like a lot of it's brokenness might have come from trying to do too much too quick, but I don't really know. Also fwiw, I would agree with tpowa's recommendation of archboot for the moment for people who need more "hand-holding". It's a pretty solid tool. -- Jeremiah Dodds github : https://github.com/jdodds freenode : exhortatory
On 04/08/12 at 01:17am, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
What happened to the arch setup autoinstaller script that guided you though the install process?? It was minimal, and worked very well to guide you through. Even helpful with raid installs after your arrays were assembled and partitioned. Now, unless I'm completely missing something, we a back to a total manual install with archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall. I've looked at the basic setup wiki and the install guide wiki and I don't see the friendly install tool referenced anywhere. So am I missing it, or are we just back to a manual install? (guessing where packages are /usr/bin, /usr/sbin or /sbin. On archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall, /usr/sbin is not in the default path, so typing dhcpcd as instructed in the wiki -- does nothing...
I really liked the old arch installer. It was a fairly brain-dead install that nicely walked you though the install process with minimal keystrokes and choices required. Is that installer on the archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall image? If so where?
(This is an arch client vbox install if that makes any difference...)
http://www.archlinux.org/news/install-media-20120715-released/ -- http://jasonwryan.com/ [GnuPG Key: B1BD4E40]
On 08/04/2012 01:20 AM, Jason Ryan wrote:
On 04/08/12 at 01:17am, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
What happened to the arch setup autoinstaller script that guided you though the install process?? It was minimal, and worked very well to guide you through. Even helpful with raid installs after your arrays were assembled and partitioned. Now, unless I'm completely missing something, we a back to a total manual install with archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall. I've looked at the basic setup wiki and the install guide wiki and I don't see the friendly install tool referenced anywhere. So am I missing it, or are we just back to a manual install? (guessing where packages are /usr/bin, /usr/sbin or /sbin. On archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall, /usr/sbin is not in the default path, so typing dhcpcd as instructed in the wiki -- does nothing...
I really liked the old arch installer. It was a fairly brain-dead install that nicely walked you though the install process with minimal keystrokes and choices required. Is that installer on the archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall image? If so where?
(This is an arch client vbox install if that makes any difference...)
http://www.archlinux.org/news/install-media-20120715-released/
Got, Just seems like a waste to throw away all the hard work that went into AIF. Any particular reason it was ditched, other than it just not being updated to support the latest gee whiz stuff? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 01:17:37AM -0500, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
What happened to the arch setup autoinstaller script that guided you though the install process?? It was minimal, and worked very well to guide you through. Even helpful with raid installs after your arrays were assembled and partitioned. Now, unless I'm completely missing something, we a back to a total manual install with archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall. I've looked at the basic setup wiki and the install guide wiki and I don't see the friendly install tool referenced anywhere. So am I missing it, or are we just back to a manual install? (guessing where packages are /usr/bin, /usr/sbin or /sbin. On archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall, /usr/sbin is not in the default path, so typing dhcpcd as instructed in the wiki -- does nothing...
I really liked the old arch installer. It was a fairly brain-dead install that nicely walked you though the install process with minimal keystrokes and choices required. Is that installer on the archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall image? If so where?
(This is an arch client vbox install if that makes any difference...)
-- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
http://www.archlinux.org/news/install-media-20120715-released/ If is not on the iso because it is broken. It has plenty of bugs which you can see for yourself in the bug tracker https://bugs.archlinux.org/index.php?project=6 It definitly needs a patch for the fact that grub is no longer a package in the repositories, the iso comming out soon, 20120804 will have grub2 on it so people with efi should be able to use it. The partitioning has been long broken in the testing isos. And aif has no maintainer. If you want to help get it back onto the iso, go read the releng mailing list. Other than that, learn to use the new install scripts. They basically simplify the way you have always been able to install Archlinux https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Install_from_Existing_Linux . This works because the livecd is an Existing Linux installation. For more information about the install scripts see https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Install_Scripts and help update the beginners guide where it needs to be changed. If you are going to complain how this isn't K.I.S.S. here is a blogpost from Pierre Schmitz on how Archlinux was originally installed https://pierre-schmitz.com/how-your-parents-installed-arch/ -- Daniel Wallace Archlinux Trusted User (gtmanfred) Georgia Institute of Technology
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 08/04/2012 01:25 AM, Daniel Wallace wrote:
http://www.archlinux.org/news/install-media-20120715-released/
If is not on the iso because it is broken. It has plenty of bugs which you can see for yourself in the bug tracker https://bugs.archlinux.org/index.php?project=6
It definitly needs a patch for the fact that grub is no longer a package in the repositories, the iso comming out soon, 20120804 will have grub2 on it so people with efi should be able to use it. The partitioning has been long broken in the testing isos. And aif has no maintainer. If you want to help get it back onto the iso, go read the releng mailing list. Other than that, learn to use the new install scripts. They basically simplify the way you have always been able to install Archlinux https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Install_from_Existing_Linux . This works because the livecd is an Existing Linux installation. For more information about the install scripts see https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Install_Scripts and help update the beginners guide where it needs to be changed.
If you are going to complain how this isn't K.I.S.S. here is a blogpost from Pierre Schmitz on how Archlinux was originally installed https://pierre-schmitz.com/how-your-parents-installed-arch/
Dan, Thank you for pointing out the problems with AIF, I wasn't aware that it was a broken as it was. I had never encountered install problems with it, even with fakeraid/mdraid installs. You read me wrong, and I admit I could have been a bit more articulate, but at 0000 and just wanting a quick vbox install to test new TDE packages on, I was a bit taken when there was no AIF. I'm not so much complaining as I am intending to foster a discussion about why a distro of Arch's caliber ditched its installer with no working replacement. (I know, it all comes down to manpower available, but at what cost?) The crux of the discussion I guess, should really be on how to balance the desire to immediately release the latest upstream change verses insuring the change can be released without breaking other parts of the Arch system. The issue here with AIF/grub2 is a perfect example. grub is old and needs replacing, but Arch dropped grub and replaced it with grub2 while at the same time dropping AIF, which left Arch with no installer. It just seems that sometimes a better or more well thought out migration path could be put in place that would eliminate these type of surprises. This isn't a complaint, this is open discussion hoping to foster a better way of avoiding loss of capability in the distro. If arch wasn't that good of a distro, I wouldn't devote the time to trying to think though these issues and find solutions to make Arch work better. It is, so it is worth thinking though whether there is a better way to do things like this. I'll add to the beginners guide so there is a bit more guidance with the manual install. - -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAdXK4ACgkQZMpuZ8Cyrcg5OwCdFHb4fuIC+JgD35TIAYKIPCM8 HFoAn3h3mg7bqeSPqqVYXS4vxGOmG2FJ =0iN0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 01:17:37AM -0500, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
What happened to the arch setup autoinstaller script that guided you though the install process?? It was minimal, and worked very well to guide you through. Even helpful with raid installs after your arrays were assembled and partitioned. Now, unless I'm completely missing something, we a back to a total manual install with archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall. I've looked at the basic setup wiki and the install guide wiki and I don't see the friendly install tool referenced anywhere. So am I missing it, or are we just back to a manual install? (guessing where packages are /usr/bin, /usr/sbin or /sbin. On archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall, /usr/sbin is not in the default path, so typing dhcpcd as instructed in the wiki -- does nothing...
I really liked the old arch installer. It was a fairly brain-dead install that nicely walked you though the install process with minimal keystrokes and choices required. Is that installer on the archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall image? If so where?
(This is an arch client vbox install if that makes any difference...)
David, you are fairly active on the mailing lists, and it's amusing that you totally missed the discussions related to the removal of AIF a few weeks ago.
On 4 Aug 2012 15:06, "gt" <static.vortex@gmx.com> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 01:17:37AM -0500, David C. Rankin wrote:
Guys,
What happened to the arch setup autoinstaller script that guided you
the install process?? It was minimal, and worked very well to guide you
though through.
Even helpful with raid installs after your arrays were assembled and partitioned. Now, unless I'm completely missing something, we a back to a total manual install with archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall. I've looked at the basic setup wiki and the install guide wiki and I don't see the friendly install tool referenced anywhere. So am I missing it, or are we just back to a manual install? (guessing where packages are /usr/bin, /usr/sbin or /sbin. On archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall, /usr/sbin is not in the default path, so typing dhcpcd as instructed in the wiki -- does nothing...
I really liked the old arch installer. It was a fairly brain-dead install that nicely walked you though the install process with minimal keystrokes and choices required. Is that installer on the archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall image? If so where?
(This is an arch client vbox install if that makes any difference...)
David, you are fairly active on the mailing lists, and it's amusing that you totally missed the discussions related to the removal of AIF a few weeks ago.
More to the point, as a maintainer of a fairly complicated set of packages, he should be following important announcements rather than shooting of emails when he personally encounters the changes. Or at least looking at the front pages
On 08/04/2012 10:49 AM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:
you totally missed the discussions related to the removal of AIF a few weeks ago. More to the point, as a maintainer of a fairly complicated set of packages, he should be following important announcements rather than shooting of emails when he personally encounters the changes. Or at least looking at
David, you are fairly active on the mailing lists, and it's amusing that the front pages
Both points well taken. I do follow - to the greatest extent possible - the changes with arch. Even scanning the dev list, I completely glossed over the AIF removal, thus the email. After having completed the install without it, I can say, AIF is sorely missed. The install guide that is currently in the wiki, does a good job, but it is extremely terse. The install can be done with the install wiki, but it takes an additional level of effort and Linux understanding than with AIF (and that had no training wheels). The current install is silent on 'swap'. I wanted a 500M swap, so I created on with cfdisk during install and added it to fstab. Simple issue, but it was things like that that AIF did that really helped cut down on the time/thought required for install. What is the current Arch policy for swap creation? Is it still recommended? If so, for what systems? (RAM <X, other criteria?) Let me know and I'll add it to the install wiki. Even if it is "Arch doesn't recommend swap creation", that should still be there for all users that historically have come to expect a swap. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On 04/08/12 at 08:43pm, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 08/04/2012 10:49 AM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:
you totally missed the discussions related to the removal of AIF a few weeks ago. More to the point, as a maintainer of a fairly complicated set of packages, he should be following important announcements rather than shooting of emails when he personally encounters the changes. Or at least looking at
David, you are fairly active on the mailing lists, and it's amusing that the front pages
Both points well taken. I do follow - to the greatest extent possible - the changes with arch. Even scanning the dev list, I completely glossed over the AIF removal, thus the email. After having completed the install without it, I can say, AIF is sorely missed.
The install guide that is currently in the wiki, does a good job, but it is extremely terse. The install can be done with the install wiki, but it takes an additional level of effort and Linux understanding than with AIF (and that had no training wheels). The current install is silent on 'swap'. I wanted a 500M swap, so I created on with cfdisk during install and added it to fstab. Simple issue, but it was things like that that AIF did that really helped cut down on the time/thought required for install.
I fail to see how cutting down the thought required for an install can be considered a deficiency. It just sets low expectations about the thought required to run the distro subsequently… /J -- http://jasonwryan.com/ [GnuPG Key: B1BD4E40]
On 05/08/12 03:43, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 08/04/2012 10:49 AM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:
you totally missed the discussions related to the removal of AIF a few weeks ago. More to the point, as a maintainer of a fairly complicated set of packages, he should be following important announcements rather than shooting of emails when he personally encounters the changes. Or at least looking at
David, you are fairly active on the mailing lists, and it's amusing that the front pages
Both points well taken. I do follow - to the greatest extent possible - the changes with arch. Even scanning the dev list, I completely glossed over the AIF removal, thus the email. After having completed the install without it, I can say, AIF is sorely missed.
The install guide that is currently in the wiki, does a good job, but it is extremely terse. The install can be done with the install wiki, but it takes an additional level of effort and Linux understanding than with AIF (and that had no training wheels). The current install is silent on 'swap'. I wanted a 500M swap, so I created on with cfdisk during install and added it to fstab. Simple issue, but it was things like that that AIF did that really helped cut down on the time/thought required for install.
What is the current Arch policy for swap creation? Is it still recommended? If so, for what systems? (RAM <X, other criteria?) Let me know and I'll add it to the install wiki. Even if it is "Arch doesn't recommend swap creation", that should still be there for all users that historically have come to expect a swap.
You're welcome to create an improved guide for installing. And as taken from the Archwiki "To summarize: Arch Linux is a versatile and simple distribution designed to fit the needs of the competent Linux® user." So anyone who wants to install Archlinux should be able to set up a partition and know how to set up a swap partition. -- Jelle van der Waa
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:43:13 -0500 "David C. Rankin" <drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
On 08/04/2012 10:49 AM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:
you totally missed the discussions related to the removal of AIF a few weeks ago. More to the point, as a maintainer of a fairly complicated set of packages, he should be following important announcements rather than shooting of emails when he personally encounters the changes. Or at least looking at
David, you are fairly active on the mailing lists, and it's amusing that the front pages
Both points well taken. I do follow - to the greatest extent possible - the changes with arch. Even scanning the dev list, I completely glossed over the AIF removal, thus the email. After having completed the install without it, I can say, AIF is sorely missed.
The install guide that is currently in the wiki, does a good job, but it is extremely terse. The install can be done with the install wiki, but it takes an additional level of effort and Linux understanding than with AIF (and that had no training wheels). The current install is silent on 'swap'. I wanted a 500M swap, so I created on with cfdisk during install and added it to fstab. Simple issue, but it was things like that that AIF did that really helped cut down on the time/thought required for install.
It is actually a good thing that a user is given a chance to stop and think -- saves several reinstall attempts.
What is the current Arch policy for swap creation? Is it still recommended? If so, for what systems? (RAM <X, other criteria?) Let me know and I'll add it to the install wiki. Even if it is "Arch doesn't recommend swap creation", that should still be there for all users that historically have come to expect a swap.
There can be no policy since the amount of swap space depends on the mission the particular system is going to perform, although http://docs.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/6/html/Storage_Ad... is still true. If you are really unsure, create a resizeable swap on top of LVM. -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
There's a beginner's guide which is not terse too. I probably managed to get arch installed with it but it isn't verbal yet. The older tactic of adding speakup and speakup_soft to MODULES line in /etc/rc.conf and alsa and espeakup to DAEMONS line in /etc/rc.conf then running grub-install and having it download and install packages and add them into the system I suppose ultimately in grub.cfg worked better than using pacstrap pacstrap /mnt base base-devel alsa-utils espeakup grub-bios sems to work. Arch when it could install was verbal then. I used grub-bios on an amd64 k8 athelon computer rather than efi-bios I hope that was correct. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hardware eventually fails; software eventually works, no amount of band width can fix poor design Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
On Sunday 05 Aug 2012 09:50:55 Leonid Isaev wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 20:43:13 -0500
The install guide that is currently in the wiki, does a good job, but it is extremely terse. The install can be done with the install wiki, but it takes an additional level of effort and Linux understanding than with AIF (and that had no training wheels).
I agree with this: I'd be perfectly comfortable installing manually, although I haven't tried it yet. However, installing manually is simply less time- efficient, and is more frustrating. I didn't really think of AIF as an installer, more of a menu-based useful tool. It's not about hand-holding; it's about getting what needs to be done quickly and efficiently without needing to read through copious notes and type commands by hand. Sometimes the time it takes to do that is frustrating, especially in a work environment.
It is actually a good thing that a user is given a chance to stop and think -- saves several reinstall attempts.
Will they stop and think, or will they get frustrated by the notes and start copying commands verbatim and bork the whole thing? It really depends on whether the user is the kind of person who is already careful or not. As I recall, one of the main issues was that the AIF maintainer has stepped down. I don't think the devs actively chose to ditch AIF, it just kind of happened, and they've done the best they can in the situation. I'm trusting it'll be fixed or replaced with some other kind of menu-based tool to help with the procedure in due course. It seems like it's just a matter of time. Paul
2012/8/6 Paul Gideon Dann <pdgiddie@gmail.com>: [...]
As I recall, one of the main issues was that the AIF maintainer has stepped down. I don't think the devs actively chose to ditch AIF, it just kind of happened, and they've done the best they can in the situation. I'm trusting it'll be fixed or replaced with some other kind of menu-based tool to help with the procedure in due course. It seems like it's just a matter of time.
Seeing the postings by Jeremiah Dodds, he is already working on it. ;) I can't speak for him, but i would guess that some help with getting AIF back on track would be appreciated. mvg, Guus
Guus Snijders <gsnijders@gmail.com> writes:
2012/8/6 Paul Gideon Dann <pdgiddie@gmail.com>:
[...]
As I recall, one of the main issues was that the AIF maintainer has stepped down. I don't think the devs actively chose to ditch AIF, it just kind of happened, and they've done the best they can in the situation. I'm trusting it'll be fixed or replaced with some other kind of menu-based tool to help with the procedure in due course. It seems like it's just a matter of time.
Seeing the postings by Jeremiah Dodds, he is already working on it. ;)
I'm certainly trying :P
I can't speak for him, but i would guess that some help with getting AIF back on track would be appreciated.
Patches (and advice) always welcome ;) -- Jeremiah Dodds github : https://github.com/jdodds freenode : exhortatory
participants (12)
-
Daniel Wallace
-
David C. Rankin
-
gt
-
Guus Snijders
-
Jason Ryan
-
Jelle van der Waa
-
Jeremiah Dodds
-
Jude DaShiell
-
Leonid Isaev
-
Oon-Ee Ng
-
Paul Gideon Dann
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Tobias Powalowski