[arch-general] What are people's opinions about this?

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[arch-general] Some gtk apps not...

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Grigorios Bouzakis

14 Apr 2011 14 Apr '11

1:45 a.m.

This feature request: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/23747 ---- Greg

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Yaro Kasear

14 Apr 14 Apr

1:49 a.m.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 20:45:32 Grigorios Bouzakis wrote:

...

This feature request: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/23747

---- Greg

Is this some sort of configuration utility for Xorg? A little background would be nice.

Grigorios Bouzakis

1:55 a.m.

Yaro Kasear wrote:

...

On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 20:45:32 Grigorios Bouzakis wrote:

...
This feature request: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/23747

---- Greg

Is this some sort of configuration utility for Xorg? A little background would be nice.

Autocutsel is not part of the X suite. It changes the way the X clipboards work. http://www.nongnu.org/autocutsel "X servers use two schemes to copy text between applications. The first one (old and deprecated) is the cutbuffer. It is a simple buffer in which any application can store text. The other scheme is the selection and works differently. There may be many selections in a single server. An application does not copy data in a selection, it "owns" it. When another application wants to retreive the content of a selection, it asks the owner. Recent desktop applications (GNOME, KDE, ...) use two selections: the PRIMARY and the CLIPBOARD. The PRIMARY selection is used when you select some text with the mouse. You usually paste it using the middle button. The CLIPBOARD selection is used when you copy text by using, for example, the Edit/Copy menu. You may paste it using the Edit/Paste menu. Windows VNC clients keep the Windows clipboard synchronized with the cutbuffer, but not with the selections. And since recent applications don't use the cutbuffer, the server's CLIPBOARD is never synchronized with Windows' one. Autocutsel tracks changes in the server's cutbuffer and CLIPBOARD selection. When the CLIPBOARD is changed, it updates the cutbuffer. When the cutbuffer is changed, it owns the CLIPBOARD selection. The cutbuffer and CLIPBOARD selection are always synchronized. Since the VNC client synchronizes the Windows' clipboard and the server's cutbuffer, all three "clipboards" are always kept synchronized. When you copy some text in Windows, the cutbuffer and the CLIPBOARD selection are updated. When you copy text on the server using either the cutbuffer or the CLIPBOARD selection, the Windows's clipboard is always updated. You can also use autocutsel to track the PRIMARY selection to copy text when it's selected. To do this, simply run autocutsel with the arguments "-s PRIMARY" Some softwares (like Open Office Writer) have trouble when the PRIMARY selection is requested before the mouse button is released. As a workaround, you can run autocutsel with the "-buttonup" option and it will only get the selection when the first mouse button is not pressed."

Auguste Pop

1:59 a.m.

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Grigorios Bouzakis wrote:

...

Yaro Kasear wrote:

...
On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 20:45:32 Grigorios Bouzakis wrote:

...
This feature request: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/23747

---- Greg

Is this some sort of configuration utility for Xorg? A little background would be nice.

Autocutsel is not part of the X suite. It changes the way the X clipboards work. http://www.nongnu.org/autocutsel

"X servers use two schemes to copy text between applications. The first one (old and deprecated) is the cutbuffer. It is a simple buffer in which any application can store text. The other scheme is the selection and works differently. There may be many selections in a single server. An application does not copy data in a selection, it "owns" it. When another application wants to retreive the content of a selection, it asks the owner.

Recent desktop applications (GNOME, KDE, ...) use two selections: the PRIMARY and the CLIPBOARD. The PRIMARY selection is used when you select some text with the mouse. You usually paste it using the middle button. The CLIPBOARD selection is used when you copy text by using, for example, the Edit/Copy menu. You may paste it using the Edit/Paste menu.

Windows VNC clients keep the Windows clipboard synchronized with the cutbuffer, but not with the selections. And since recent applications don't use the cutbuffer, the server's CLIPBOARD is never synchronized with Windows' one.

Autocutsel tracks changes in the server's cutbuffer and CLIPBOARD selection. When the CLIPBOARD is changed, it updates the cutbuffer. When the cutbuffer is changed, it owns the CLIPBOARD selection. The cutbuffer and CLIPBOARD selection are always synchronized. Since the VNC client synchronizes the Windows' clipboard and the server's cutbuffer, all three "clipboards" are always kept synchronized. When you copy some text in Windows, the cutbuffer and the CLIPBOARD selection are updated. When you copy text on the server using either the cutbuffer or the CLIPBOARD selection, the Windows's clipboard is always updated.

You can also use autocutsel to track the PRIMARY selection to copy text when it's selected. To do this, simply run autocutsel with the arguments "-s PRIMARY"

Some softwares (like Open Office Writer) have trouble when the PRIMARY selection is requested before the mouse button is released. As a workaround, you can run autocutsel with the "-buttonup" option and it will only get the selection when the first mouse button is not pressed."

does this fix the problem that i can not directly copy-paste from java applications into gnome-terminal? although it seems to be working in places where i can ctrl+v.

Heiko Baums

6:35 a.m.

Am Thu, 14 Apr 2011 04:55:32 +0300 schrieb Grigorios Bouzakis :

...

Yaro Kasear wrote:

...
On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 20:45:32 Grigorios Bouzakis wrote:

...
This feature request: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/23747

---- Greg

Is this some sort of configuration utility for Xorg? A little background would be nice.

Autocutsel is not part of the X suite. It changes the way the X clipboards work. http://www.nongnu.org/autocutsel

"X servers use two schemes to copy text between applications. The first one (old and deprecated) is the cutbuffer. It is a simple buffer in which any application can store text. The other scheme is the selection and works differently. There may be many selections in a single server. An application does not copy data in a selection, it "owns" it. When another application wants to retreive the content of a selection, it asks the owner.

Autocutsel tracks changes in the server's cutbuffer and CLIPBOARD selection. When the CLIPBOARD is changed, it updates the cutbuffer. When the cutbuffer is changed, it owns the CLIPBOARD selection. The cutbuffer and CLIPBOARD selection are always synchronized. Since the VNC client synchronizes the Windows' clipboard and the server's cutbuffer, all three "clipboards" are always kept synchronized. When you copy some text in Windows, the cutbuffer and the CLIPBOARD selection are updated. When you copy text on the server using either the cutbuffer or the CLIPBOARD selection, the Windows's clipboard is always updated.

From what I read about it now, definitely not! I regularly use both standard X buffers and I need both. I need the Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V method as well as just pasting the selection with the middle mouse click. Btw., usually the clipboards of most DEs - at least the ones of KDE and Xfce - already let the user decide and configure how both buffers are handled, if they are synchronized or if they are separated. So I don't think there's a need for such a tool like autocutsel and it definitely doesn't have to become a default, means a dependency. Users who want autocutsel can, of course, install it. But there shouldn't be any system wide config which forces the users to use it the way the admin wants them to use it. Heiko

Francesco Nwokeka

7:21 a.m.

On Thursday 14 April 2011 08:35:28 Heiko Baums wrote:

...

Am Thu, 14 Apr 2011 04:55:32 +0300

schrieb Grigorios Bouzakis :

...
Yaro Kasear wrote:

...
On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 20:45:32 Grigorios Bouzakis wrote:

...
This feature request: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/23747

---- Greg

Is this some sort of configuration utility for Xorg? A little background would be nice.

Autocutsel is not part of the X suite. It changes the way the X clipboards work. http://www.nongnu.org/autocutsel

"X servers use two schemes to copy text between applications. The first one (old and deprecated) is the cutbuffer. It is a simple buffer in which any application can store text. The other scheme is the selection and works differently. There may be many selections in a single server. An application does not copy data in a selection, it "owns" it. When another application wants to retreive the content of a selection, it asks the owner.

Autocutsel tracks changes in the server's cutbuffer and CLIPBOARD selection. When the CLIPBOARD is changed, it updates the cutbuffer. When the cutbuffer is changed, it owns the CLIPBOARD selection. The cutbuffer and CLIPBOARD selection are always synchronized. Since the VNC client synchronizes the Windows' clipboard and the server's cutbuffer, all three "clipboards" are always kept synchronized. When you copy some text in Windows, the cutbuffer and the CLIPBOARD selection are updated. When you copy text on the server using either the cutbuffer or the CLIPBOARD selection, the Windows's clipboard is always updated.

From what I read about it now, definitely not! Quote +1

...

I regularly use both standard X buffers and I need both. I need the Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V method as well as just pasting the selection with the middle mouse click. Btw., usually the clipboards of most DEs - at least the ones of KDE and Xfce - already let the user decide and configure how both buffers are handled, if they are synchronized or if they are separated.

So I don't think there's a need for such a tool like autocutsel and it definitely doesn't have to become a default, means a dependency. Users who want autocutsel can, of course, install it. But there shouldn't be any system wide config which forces the users to use it the way the admin wants them to use it. And again +1. I absolutley don't think all users should have to follow what only a few find useful. If the users that need it want it, they can install it seperatly.

Francesco

Grigorios Bouzakis

7:33 a.m.

Heiko Baums wrote:

...

...
...
On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 20:45:32 Grigorios Bouzakis wrote:

...
This feature request: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/23747

Greg

From what I read about it now, definitely not!

I regularly use both standard X buffers and I need both. I need the Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V method as well as just pasting the selection with the middle mouse click. Btw., usually the clipboards of most DEs - at least the ones of KDE and Xfce - already let the user decide and configure how both buffers are handled, if they are synchronized or if they are separated.

So I don't think there's a need for such a tool like autocutsel and it definitely doesn't have to become a default, means a dependency. Users who want autocutsel can, of course, install it. But there shouldn't be any system wide config which forces the users to use it the way the admin wants them to use it.

Its a bit long, so apologies beforehand. I will post about this here and not the bug tracker, hoping more people will read it. If you are interested in learning about the X clipboard consult this document: http://standards.freedesktop.org/clipboards-spec/clipboards-latest.txt its the latest standard i know of. Additionally, some Debian developer actually wrote man pages for this "very poorly documented" but very useful application: autocutsel(1): http://goo.gl/oLjME cutsel(1): http://goo.gl/al1WN Heres a step by step demonstration: Testcase A: Using 'autocutsel -fork &' in my .xinitrc i copy "test1" using the mouse selection and https://bbs.archlinux.org/ using a right click+copy on firefox from the Arch homepage. Heres what cutsel reports: $ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD cut https://bbs.archlinux.org/ $ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD sel https://bbs.archlinux.org/ $ cutsel -s PRIMARY cut https://bbs.archlinux.org/ $ cutsel -s PRIMARY sel test1 Testcase B: Using 'autocutsel -selection PRIMARY -fork &' in my .xinitrc i copy "test2" using the mouse selection and https://bbs.archlinux.org/ using a right click+copy on firefox from the Arch homepage. Heres what cutsel reports: $ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD cut test2 $ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD sel https://bbs.archlinux.org/ $ cutsel -s PRIMARY cut test2 $ cutsel -s PRIMARY sel test2 Testcase C: Using both 'autocutsel -fork &' as well as 'autocutsel -selection PRIMARY -fork &' in my .xinitrc i copy "test3" using the mouse selection and https://bbs.archlinux.org/ using a right click+copy on firefox from the Arch homepage. Heres what cutsel reports: $ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD cut test3 $ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD sel test3 $ cutsel -s PRIMARY cut test3 $ cutsel -s PRIMARY sel test3 Which is *mandatory* now for users who have installed the autocutsel package from [community]? The worst possible one, testcase C. Like Heiko said you lose the advantage of the 'second clipboard'. PS. This shows one of the reasons i recently opened a feature request in the bug tracker asking to give some emphasis on documentation distributed with packages in general. The wiki is a very good resource but it isn't always right and its certainly not a comprehensive resource of knowledge. ---- Greg

Grigorios Bouzakis

7:54 a.m.

Grigorios Bouzakis wrote:

...

Heiko Baums wrote:

...
...
...
On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 20:45:32 Grigorios Bouzakis wrote:

...
This feature request: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/23747

Greg

From what I read about it now, definitely not!

I regularly use both standard X buffers and I need both. I need the Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V method as well as just pasting the selection with the middle mouse click. Btw., usually the clipboards of most DEs - at least the ones of KDE and Xfce - already let the user decide and configure how both buffers are handled, if they are synchronized or if they are separated.

So I don't think there's a need for such a tool like autocutsel and it definitely doesn't have to become a default, means a dependency. Users who want autocutsel can, of course, install it. But there shouldn't be any system wide config which forces the users to use it the way the admin wants them to use it.

Its a bit long, so apologies beforehand.

I will post about this here and not the bug tracker, hoping more people will read it. If you are interested in learning about the X clipboard consult this document: http://standards.freedesktop.org/clipboards-spec/clipboards-latest.txt its the latest standard i know of. Additionally, some Debian developer actually wrote man pages for this "very poorly documented" but very useful application:

autocutsel(1): http://goo.gl/oLjME cutsel(1): http://goo.gl/al1WN

Heres a step by step demonstration:

Testcase A: Using 'autocutsel -fork &' in my .xinitrc i copy "test1" using the mouse selection and https://bbs.archlinux.org/ using a right click+copy on firefox from the Arch homepage.

Heres what cutsel reports:

$ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD cut https://bbs.archlinux.org/ $ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD sel https://bbs.archlinux.org/ $ cutsel -s PRIMARY cut https://bbs.archlinux.org/ $ cutsel -s PRIMARY sel test1

Testcase B: Using 'autocutsel -selection PRIMARY -fork &' in my .xinitrc i copy "test2" using the mouse selection and https://bbs.archlinux.org/ using a right click+copy on firefox from the Arch homepage.

Heres what cutsel reports:

$ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD cut test2 $ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD sel https://bbs.archlinux.org/ $ cutsel -s PRIMARY cut test2 $ cutsel -s PRIMARY sel test2

Testcase C: Using both 'autocutsel -fork &' as well as 'autocutsel -selection PRIMARY -fork &' in my .xinitrc i copy "test3" using the mouse selection and https://bbs.archlinux.org/ using a right click+copy on firefox from the Arch homepage.

Heres what cutsel reports:

$ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD cut test3 $ cutsel -s CLIPBOARD sel test3 $ cutsel -s PRIMARY cut test3 $ cutsel -s PRIMARY sel test3

Which is *mandatory* now for users who have installed the autocutsel package from [community]? The worst possible one, testcase C. Like Heiko said you lose the advantage of the 'second clipboard'.

Apologies, for the use of mandatory above, it is a bit exaggerated. It is now the default and mandatory only for users who don't have write access to /etc. Its also far from the UNIX standard but behaviour found in other operating systems.

...

PS. This shows one of the reasons i recently opened a feature request in the bug tracker asking to give some emphasis on documentation distributed with packages in general. The wiki is a very good resource but it isn't always right and its certainly not a comprehensive resource of knowledge.

Heiko Baums

7:55 a.m.

Am Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:33:06 +0300 schrieb Grigorios Bouzakis :

...

I will post about this here and not the bug tracker, hoping more people will read it. If you are interested in learning about the X clipboard consult this document: http://standards.freedesktop.org/clipboards-spec/clipboards-latest.txt its the latest standard i know of. Additionally, some Debian developer actually wrote man pages for this "very poorly documented" but very useful application:

autocutsel(1): http://goo.gl/oLjME cutsel(1): http://goo.gl/al1WN

Heres a step by step demonstration: ...

Sorry, but I still don't know why I should need autocutsel. The old, X standard way just works. I never had any problems and I never felt the need for something different. And I really don't want to read tons of documentations about a tool I don't need. And because I don't need it I don't want to be forced to using it, and I don't want to be forced to using it the way an admin thinks I should use it. Like I said before, the clipboards of at least KDE and Xfce, and I bet Gnome's clipboard, too, allow me to synchronize both buffers or to keep them separated. And I can move the clipboard content from one buffer to the other with those DE's clipboards. Why do I need autocutsel? People who need or want it, can install it separately. But, if it's installed, the user must have the possibility to configure it the way he wants and he must have the choice of running or not running it. And as far as I know there's a way to start and configure it in ~/.xinitrc. So this is the way to go within the autocutsel package. Well, if there's a system wide config then it must be possible to have this changed/overwritten by the user to his needs. Heiko

Grigorios Bouzakis

8:32 a.m.

Heiko Baums wrote:

...

Sorry, but I still don't know why I should need autocutsel. The old, X standard way just works. I never had any problems and I never felt the need for something different.

And I really don't want to read tons of documentations about a tool I don't need. And because I don't need it I don't want to be forced to using it, and I don't want to be forced to using it the way an admin thinks I should use it.

Like I said before, the clipboards of at least KDE and Xfce, and I bet Gnome's clipboard, too, allow me to synchronize both buffers or to keep them separated. And I can move the clipboard content from one buffer to the other with those DE's clipboards.

Why do I need autocutsel? People who need or want it, can install it separately. But, if it's installed, the user must have the possibility to configure it the way he wants and he must have the choice of running or not running it.

And as far as I know there's a way to start and configure it in ~/.xinitrc. So this is the way to go within the autocutsel package. Well, if there's a system wide config then it must be possible to have this changed/overwritten by the user to his needs.

You seem to be under the impression that this is going to be the default for all users. I never said that. I specifically said that this affects only the people using the autocutsel package from [community]. Autocutsel is useful for people not using a DE and want to adjust the behaviour of the X clipboard. If you are already provided with such a tool, or the way X deals with clipboard contents by default suits you then you don't need it. ---- Greg

Heiko Baums

8:53 a.m.

Am Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:32:02 +0300 schrieb Grigorios Bouzakis :

...

You seem to be under the impression that this is going to be the default for all users.

Well, at least I'm worried that this could happen.

...

I never said that. I specifically said that this affects only the people using the autocutsel package from [community].

Autocutsel is useful for people not using a DE and want to adjust the behaviour of the X clipboard. If you are already provided with such a tool, or the way X deals with clipboard contents by default suits you then you don't need it.

Ok, but nevertheless the user should have the choice, even if it's just within the autocutsel package. So a global configuration can make much sense, but it should be possible to overwrite it with a local per user configuration. But I don't know enough about autocutsel to decide if this is possible and how this can be done. Heiko

Vitor Eiji Justus Sakaguti

1:37 p.m.

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 5:53 AM, Heiko Baums wrote:

...

Am Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:32:02 +0300 schrieb Grigorios Bouzakis :

...
this affects only the people using the autocutsel package from [community].

Autocutsel is useful for people not using a DE and want to adjust the behaviour of the X clipboard. If you are already provided with such a tool, or the way X deals with clipboard contents by default suits you then you don't need it.

Ok, but nevertheless the user should have the choice, even if it's just within the autocutsel package.

So a global configuration can make much sense, but it should be possible to overwrite it with a local per user configuration. But I don't know enough about autocutsel to decide if this is possible and how this can be done.

Well, if I understand correctly, the plan is to make the default behavior to activate autocutsel on installation. That's OK with me, since I don't plan on installing it anyway. But, should an admin of a multi-user system install this package he should be aware that this is going to affect all users in the system. I know I would be pissed if an admin did that on a system I use, but, of course, it is his decision to do so or not. But with this default, an installation note is indispensable.

Grigorios Bouzakis

15 Apr 15 Apr

11:51 p.m.

Vitor Eiji Justus Sakaguti wrote:

...

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 5:53 AM, Heiko Baums wrote:

...
Am Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:32:02 +0300 schrieb Grigorios Bouzakis :

...
this affects only the people using the autocutsel package from [community].

Autocutsel is useful for people not using a DE and want to adjust the behaviour of the X clipboard. If you are already provided with such a tool, or the way X deals with clipboard contents by default suits you then you don't need it.

Ok, but nevertheless the user should have the choice, even if it's just within the autocutsel package.

So a global configuration can make much sense, but it should be possible to overwrite it with a local per user configuration. But I don't know enough about autocutsel to decide if this is possible and how this can be done.

Well, if I understand correctly, the plan is to make the default behavior to activate autocutsel on installation. That's OK with me, since I don't plan on installing it anyway. But, should an admin of a multi-user system install this package he should be aware that this is going to affect all users in the system. I know I would be pissed if an admin did that on a system I use, but, of course, it is his decision to do so or not. But with this default, an installation note is indispensable.

Its not only that. Forcing people to configure the application in /etc means you are forcing them having a global config that applies to all users. If the user wants to customise it differently from the another user, he just can't. It has to be applied to other users as well. With the file in /etc present, a configuration in ~/.xinitrc isn't possible. It's the same as installing for example vim or emacs, or gnome or kde or any application that you find appealing, and not letting you customise it in your home directory. And if your wife or your kids and everyone else who wants to use it they must use the same configuration as you. How would you like that? Anyway, we just got another awesome post_install message thanks to me. Hooray! ---- Greg

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participants (6)

Auguste Pop
Francesco Nwokeka
Grigorios Bouzakis
Heiko Baums
Vitor Eiji Justus Sakaguti
Yaro Kasear