[aur-general] Huge packages in community

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[aur-general] Deletion request for...

Angel Velásquez

2 May 2009 2 May '09

4:35 p.m.

Hi, I've syncing my home repo today (like I've been doing since months ago) and I got irritated downloading 595 mb of nexuiz, come on, this package can be popular or whatever, but IMHO having a 595mb package on the repos will be painful. I propose for a motion to remove packages like games > 250 mb, I am not a TU anymore and I know that, but the waste of bandwith downloading games is *really* killer... A solution could be: a) Creating an official repo called [games] or something like, where TUs and Devs can put games there (huge games principally. b) Definetively not upload games to the repos I am the administrator of two official mirrors, and watching this situation I am really worried if packages > 250 mb (games) will be downloaded / updated eventually and I will have to waste GBs on this. Please don't take this personal, but IIRC "Gerolde" was suffering for the lack of space months ago, and even if this package and those huge popular games > 250 mb doesn't merely to be on the official repos, frankly (but thanks for the effort to waste the disk space Xyne!). Anyway, that's my humble opinion. -- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Linux Counter: #359909

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Andrei Thorp

2 May 2 May

8:30 p.m.

As a developer/friend of developers of several open source games, I'd like to say: huh? Option b seems unreasonable. Making a separate games repo, or perhaps a generic "big packages" repo seems reasonable, but I'm not entirely sure it's warranted. Something that is worth noting is the fact that there already is a semi-official games repo for Arch being run by Dae. Perhaps this could be elevated to a more official status and the games removed from the other repos. Another thing that has been brought up by some of my friends is binary diffs for package downloads. Is this feasible? Would it make sense? Are binaries sufficiently similar to make this worthwhile? I think probably they're not sufficiently similar and that this would require a daemon on the remote end or something annoying like that. Anyway, to recap, I'd prefer games/large packages not be dropped from repos, and I think most people would probably agree with me. I also see that you're upset, but I'd prefer to not see personal remarks (Xyne). Cheers, -AT 2009/5/2 Angel Velásquez :

...

Hi,

I've syncing my home repo today (like I've been doing since months ago) and I got irritated downloading 595 mb of nexuiz, come on, this package can be popular or whatever, but IMHO having a 595mb package on the repos will be painful.

I propose for a motion to remove packages like games > 250 mb, I am not a TU anymore and I know that, but the waste of bandwith downloading games is *really* killer... A solution could be:

a) Creating an official repo called [games] or something like, where TUs and Devs can put games there (huge games principally.

b) Definetively not upload games to the repos

I am the administrator of two official mirrors, and watching this situation I am really worried if packages > 250 mb (games) will be downloaded / updated eventually and I will have to waste GBs on this.

Please don't take this personal, but IIRC "Gerolde" was suffering for the lack of space months ago, and even if this package and those huge popular games > 250 mb doesn't merely to be on the official repos, frankly (but thanks for the effort to waste the disk space Xyne!).

Anyway, that's my humble opinion.

-- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Linux Counter: #359909

Florian Pritz

8:47 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Angel Velásquez wrote:

...

I am the administrator of two official mirrors, and watching this situation I am really worried if packages > 250 mb (games) will be downloaded / updated eventually and I will have to waste GBs on this.

If you can't afford the Traffic remove the files and pacman will take some other mirror. That may not be the best solution, but it saves your bandwidth. (I hope "incomplete" mirrors are tolerated. If not sorry.) Greets, Florian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJJ/LFwAAoJEG0WVcFM4cE+jo8P/AjCPVcSrt6bpqSEMOS4xvyH 1akPUQgr+S7XTgwAcA0MMmTUR8+BfzrOuS0CWjsUy10+YD7LdRXSCmkBX1z9ptyD q5zZ9uMOezoS2CXlmgp2Oeobe1dEj0ulbEG7FhFYSnv3QqVU7yQshYAfPYP4NsJm JSN1VNFmPOPN/enG2fUETokJwAamERFB+NZDMAQ69lsv0zi6S+VCHcGmu287ifIc cIK1h7rjfzq1JH9oxdohKNXw9t8+UvRFHLsZpUw7iMUxZVZPxMQk7Nsvmw/5MeQz fHTfab1zsizAGSGU5SwXRiGi9VoK7Lr7ht+rkMy/h809d14yA7nCvr9xoICT27Tz Y1ge4h6CWM7zL2jsQQumixttMtE0SXrrla4YFTCw1bnrQgDBxWU7Ll/izZK2Dbnb Q1P7SBi/FBrfQ4f3jcHSf+hbA0WzVUTLdl+SPyOI1WQ79cq+3UyG5qmPSowi1hPq oFxYZGxORdLVqfInwXwGvZ3LYDHLrudMcbb9EhSL/Zy+HuoGzhnmqOZwqVhg8Iu0 s+3Ko0nSAmaMhgoCiMRpU3iyeUIQQ4IZJXUf3VQ08qM+//G3WB18tUo8mRAKHQ9Y TnKavc3xEpn+hQ5dd2weekk8dV7ig6SdP9SZshR/QitAFe8jm9hkDikzHSAFMP4U YwKR8MObTIuskzSrkDpg =gq+2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Daenyth Blank

9:12 p.m.

2009/5/2 Angel Velásquez :

...

Hi,

I've syncing my home repo today (like I've been doing since months ago) and I got irritated downloading 595 mb of nexuiz, come on, this package can be popular or whatever, but IMHO having a 595mb package on the repos will be painful.

I propose for a motion to remove packages like games > 250 mb, I am not a TU anymore and I know that, but the waste of bandwith downloading games is *really* killer... A solution could be:

You're welcome to host whatever packages you like, or not, but I don't foresee the main repos changing.

...

a) Creating an official repo called [games] or something like, where TUs and Devs can put games there (huge games principally. Stythys and myself run the arch-games repo, but this is not intended to replace the main arch repos, only to supplement them. How does this solve the issue of disk space and bandwidth if you're just moving it from one repo to another? It's still there.

...

b) Definetively not upload games to the repos What makes games less qualified to be binary packages? Should we also not package software like OOo because it takes up a lot of disk space?

...

I am the administrator of two official mirrors, and watching this situation I am really worried if packages > 250 mb (games) will be downloaded / updated eventually and I will have to waste GBs on this. As I said, you're welcome to do whatever you want with your own mirrors.

...

Please don't take this personal, but IIRC "Gerolde" was suffering for the lack of space months ago, and even if this package and those huge popular games > 250 mb doesn't merely to be on the official repos, frankly (but thanks for the effort to waste the disk space Xyne!). There is absolutely no need for personal attacks here, and you should really be ashamed. Additionally, who are you to decide that some packages are not needed?

...

Anyway, that's my humble opinion.

-- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Linux Counter: #359909

Xyne

9:53 p.m.

...

Hi,

I've syncing my home repo today (like I've been doing since months ago) and I got irritated downloading 595 mb of nexuiz, come on, this package can be popular or whatever, but IMHO having a 595mb package on the repos will be painful.

I propose for a motion to remove packages like games > 250 mb, I am not a TU anymore and I know that, but the waste of bandwith downloading games is *really* killer... A solution could be:

a) Creating an official repo called [games] or something like, where TUs and Devs can put games there (huge games principally.

b) Definetively not upload games to the repos

I am the administrator of two official mirrors, and watching this situation I am really worried if packages > 250 mb (games) will be downloaded / updated eventually and I will have to waste GBs on this.

Please don't take this personal, but IIRC "Gerolde" was suffering for the lack of space months ago, and even if this package and those huge popular games > 250 mb doesn't merely to be on the official repos, frankly (but thanks for the effort to waste the disk space Xyne!).

Anyway, that's my humble opinion.

First off I would like to say that I took over Nexuiz from another TU so it was not my decision to upload it to community originally. Nevertheless I found your comment "but thanks for the effort to waste the disk space Xyne!" to be rude at best and left me wanting to insert several four-letter words in this reply. Also, according to the statistics page, Nexuiz is in the top 7% of installed community packages, so its inclusion in community is appreciated by the users. That said, the size of the Nexuiz package is largely due to the game data itself (textures, maps, etc) and the 3 compiled binaries in the package are small enough (in that they compile easily and quickly) that it would make little difference to a user who had to build the package himself. If other TUs agree that this package would be better off in the AUR, I will move it there and continue to maintain it (which would save me the 2x600MB upload of the binary package which takes hours with my connection). The issue that I see with this is that it Nexuiz would not longer enjoy any sort of "official" support from Arch and new users who are not yet familiar with the AUR may be left with the impression that it is not readily available. Considering the overall popularity of Nexuiz within the Linux community, this make leave a bad impression with some users. In general though I do not agree with the idea of removing larger packages simply because the server admin of a given mirror does not feel that they are worth his effort and bandwidth. Regards, Xyne

Vinzenz Vietzke

10:06 p.m.

Xyne schrieb:

...

First off I would like to say that I took over Nexuiz from another TU so it was not my decision to upload it to community originally. Nevertheless I found your comment "but thanks for the effort to waste the disk space Xyne!" to be rude at best and left me wanting to insert several four-letter words in this reply. First, I fully agree with your reaction. I think it's really unprofessional to blame someone else, just because he's "wasting" your disc space indirectly. Come on, Angel! If that's a problem for you, you should have known it before you put up an mirror.

Also, according to the statistics page, Nexuiz is in the top 7% of installed community packages, so its inclusion in community is appreciated by the users.

That said, the size of the Nexuiz package is largely due to the game data itself (textures, maps, etc) and the 3 compiled binaries in the package are small enough (in that they compile easily and quickly) that it would make little difference to a user who had to build the package himself. If other TUs agree that this package would be better off in the AUR, I will move it there and continue to maintain it (which would save me the 2x600MB upload of the binary package which takes hours with my connection). The issue that I see with this is that it Nexuiz would not longer enjoy any sort of "official" support from Arch and new users who are not yet familiar with the AUR may be left with the impression that it is not readily available. Considering the overall popularity of Nexuiz within the Linux community, this make leave a bad impression with some users. Don't even think of removing Nexuiz! It's one of the best OSS games and a really a driving force for people switching to Linux. So moving such an important programm to AUR wouldn't do Archlinux itself any favor, especially in the work for public perception!

...

In general though I do not agree with the idea of removing larger packages simply because the server admin of a given mirror does not feel that they are worth his effort and bandwidth.

Exactly! That's why a server admin is a server admin and not a developer or package maintainer! So long, vinz -- Vinzenz Vietzke www.archmirror.de

Angel Velásquez

3 May 3 May

5:49 a.m.

Well, first of all let me remind that I was a package maintainer, and the issue with "do not know" how to handle huge packages were discussed several times. Xyne, as I said this is nothing personal with you (I can add to the list of huge maintainers: Sergej, Swiergot and many other TUs, but nexuiz was the package which finally made me upset since I was downloading by hours and the update wasn't finished just because nexuiz), and I know you are "new" in the crew and I thought you knew about the issues we had about "unpopular" and "lack of space" on the server , that's why I worried about a huge games on the repo, being honestly if you want to game it's ok, but games are not necessary to be on the repo, being honest. My proposal is not to take away these binaries in first case, my first option is to move huge games to another repo, why? as I said, games *are not necessary software*, and how will benefit a [games] repo to home repos?, easy!, I simply do not add [games] in the sync script and the script won't download it -assuming that the waste of disk space won't be a problem anymore of course-.. but syncing in the way that the script is actually doing I can't realize with "marking" packages for not download it. Of course I am talking about the situation with my home personal repo, which have been downloaded every week, every saturday with a 1024 kbps connection (And some other countries, and some other people have better and worst connections btw), but I guess it will save bandwidth on connections more powerful (like the repos that I administer) too, if these kind of huge games won't be added to repos.. (I know ooo is huge and texlive too, but ooo and texlive are necessary). About the games repository of Daenyth, I would like to say is a good option to add the games there, but this repo isn't official, I apologize if I hurt some feelings, but being honestly, I had to said how pised I was cause an irresponsability of upload a game > 250 MB geez.. Anyway, just for the record, I am trying to do a calling for maintainers with huge packages not necessary (like games), please please please, think in the bandwidth and disk space of some other people, =). -- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Linux Counter: #359909

Xyne

6:42 a.m.

...

Xyne, as I said this is nothing personal with you (I can add to the list of huge maintainers: Sergej, Swiergot and many other TUs, but nexuiz was the package which finally made me upset since I was downloading by hours and the update wasn't finished just because nexuiz), and I know you are "new" in the crew and I thought you knew about the issues we had about "unpopular" and "lack of space" on the server , that's why I worried about a huge games on the repo, being honestly if you want to game it's ok, but games are not necessary to be on the repo, being honest.

Perhaps your definition of the word "personal" is different than mine and, judging by the responses, others. I'm not upset with you, but I do think your attitude is generally abrasive from what I've seen in your previous posts. It doesn't really matter though and I don't want to focus on that. As I said in my first reply, Nexuiz had already been uploaded by another TU when I took it over. The package size may have increased with the latest release, but it was still a large package before then and you would surely have had ample opportunity to discuss its inclusion in community as it's been there since I began using Arch nearly 9 months ago. I did not know about previous discussions concerning package sizes nor do I see how you could reasonably expect me to know about them if I were not here for them. I have not read the entire archive of aur-general. What defines "necessary" when dealing with community packages? I thought core and extra were for "necessary" packages while community was for packages that the community wanted. Where does necessity enter into it? Community wasn't even enabled by default before and yet people managed to run their systems. This seems to be the definition of another word on which we disagree.

...

My proposal is not to take away these binaries in first case, my first option is to move huge games to another repo, why? as I said, games *are not necessary software*, and how will benefit a [games] repo to home repos?, easy!, I simply do not add [games] in the sync script and the script won't download it -assuming that the waste of disk space won't be a problem anymore of course-.. but syncing in the way that the script is actually doing I can't realize with "marking" packages for not download it.

How would that proposal handle the currently centralized mirrorlist? Would you want to split that into separate repos?

...

Of course I am talking about the situation with my home personal repo, which have been downloaded every week, every saturday with a 1024 kbps connection (And some other countries, and some other people have better and worst connections btw), but I guess it will save bandwidth on connections more powerful (like the repos that I administer) too, if these kind of huge games won't be added to repos.. (I know ooo is huge and texlive too, but ooo and texlive are necessary).

What are you doing with your personal repo? Are you using it to sync other public repos? If not, then there is no reason at all to download the entire community repo. If your entire argument is based on wanting to remove a package from one of the official repos just so you can save some time when upgrading your personal computer by having a full copy of sync, I would call you egocentric. That is not a valid reason and it undermines your argument. If this is not the case, please clarify.

...

Anyway, just for the record, I am trying to do a calling for maintainers with huge packages not necessary (like games), please please please, think in the bandwidth and disk space of some other people, =).

...

Angel Velásquez

Again, what is "necessary" according to you and what bandwidth are we talking about here? If this really is just for your personal repo? Also note that in my first reply I offered to move Nexuiz to the AUR, stating the pros and cons that such a move would entail. I hope that some other TUs will weigh in on this discussion and post their thoughts on my previous suggestion. Regards, Xyne

Chris Brannon

1:01 p.m.

Xyne wrote:

...

I did not know about previous discussions concerning package sizes nor do I see how you could reasonably expect me to know about them if I were not here for them. I have not read the entire archive of aur-general.

Package size might have been discussed in the arguments last November, but most of that thread was really concerned with the presence of unpopular packages.

...

What defines "necessary" when dealing with community packages? I thought core and extra were for "necessary" packages while community was for packages that the community wanted. Where does necessity enter

I think [community] is about popularity, moreso than necessity. Nexuiz has 222 votes. It more than satisfies the criteria for being in [community]. IMHO, it belongs in a binary repo, rather than [unsupported]. This argument is about a technical problem, rather than a social or cultural one. The debate will go away when the technical problem is solved. Packages in [community] have categories, and one of those categories is "games". One solution is a "partial mirror" script, which excludes packages from a mirror based on their category. This also obviates any perceived need to split [community]. Someone has to write the script, but it seems like a good idea to me! -- Chris

José Valecillos

2:08 p.m.

No offense intended, but i completely agree that Xyne says about that AngeI attitude are scathing in his comments. And how Chris was suggested, It's possible just ignore this u others packages when you sync with the repos, and this is in the wiki anyway: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman#General_Options Correct me if I'm wrong -- José Valecillos

Abhishek Dasgupta

4:07 p.m.

2009/5/3 Chris Brannon :

...

This argument is about a technical problem, rather than a social or cultural one. The debate will go away when the technical problem is solved. Packages in [community] have categories, and one of those categories is "games". One solution is a "partial mirror" script, which excludes packages from a mirror based on their category. This also obviates any perceived need to split [community]. Someone has to write the script, but it seems like a good idea to me!

rsync has an exclude option which can selectively exclude files from being synchronized. Removing a package from community.db.tar.gz is also easy. -- Abhishek

Abhishek Dasgupta

4:09 p.m.

2009/5/3 Abhishek Dasgupta :

...

rsync has an exclude option which can selectively exclude files from being synchronized. Removing a package from community.db.tar.gz is also easy.

Also, just noticed this option in rsync(1): --max-size: don't transfer any file larger than SIZE -- Abhishek

Florian Pritz

4:43 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Abhishek Dasgupta wrote:

...

Removing a package from community.db.tar.gz is also easy. This is a bad idea because if anyone uses this DB he won't be able to get the package. If you just don't have the pkg.tar.gz pacman will try other mirrors. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Daenyth Blank

2:33 p.m.

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 02:42, Xyne wrote:

...

Also note that in my first reply I offered to move Nexuiz to the AUR, stating the pros and cons that such a move would entail. I hope that some other TUs will weigh in on this discussion and post their thoughts on my previous suggestion. Just because one person is being crotchety is no reason to move it out of the repo. Leave it there please.

Angel Velásquez

4:57 p.m.

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Xyne wrote:

...

...
Xyne, as I said this is nothing personal with you (I can add to the list of huge maintainers: Sergej, Swiergot and many other TUs, but nexuiz was the package which finally made me upset since I was downloading by hours and the update wasn't finished just because nexuiz), and I know you are "new" in the crew and I thought you knew about the issues we had about "unpopular" and "lack of space" on the server , that's why I worried about a huge games on the repo, being honestly if you want to game it's ok, but games are not necessary to be on the repo, being honest.

Perhaps your definition of the word "personal" is different than mine and, judging by the responses, others. I'm not upset with you, but I do think your attitude is generally abrasive from what I've seen in your previous posts. It doesn't really matter though and I don't want to focus on that.

As I said in my first reply, Nexuiz had already been uploaded by another TU when I took it over. The package size may have increased with the latest release, but it was still a large package before then and you would surely have had ample opportunity to discuss its inclusion in community as it's been there since I began using Arch nearly 9 months ago.

I did not know about previous discussions concerning package sizes nor do I see how you could reasonably expect me to know about them if I were not here for them. I have not read the entire archive of aur-general.

You should read them, sometimes have a knowledge of past discussions will clarify you many positions of many people, but it's just a recommendation, at least I did it before applied to be a TU.

...

What defines "necessary" when dealing with community packages? I thought core and extra were for "necessary" packages while community was for packages that the community wanted. Where does necessity enter into it? Community wasn't even enabled by default before and yet people managed to run their systems. This seems to be the definition of another word on which we disagree.

Common sens people, games are not necessary software, games are optional software, necessary software is that which means "productivity" or "required" (like drivers, etc).

...

...
My proposal is not to take away these binaries in first case, my first option is to move huge games to another repo, why? as I said, games *are not necessary software*, and how will benefit a [games] repo to home repos?, easy!, I simply do not add [games] in the sync script and the script won't download it -assuming that the waste of disk space won't be a problem anymore of course-.. but syncing in the way that the script is actually doing I can't realize with "marking" packages for not download it.

How would that proposal handle the currently centralized mirrorlist? Would you want to split that into separate repos?

Separating them in another repo, like [games] for example.

...

...
Of course I am talking about the situation with my home personal repo, which have been downloaded every week, every saturday with a 1024 kbps connection (And some other countries, and some other people have better and worst connections btw), but I guess it will save bandwidth on connections more powerful (like the repos that I administer) too, if these kind of huge games won't be added to repos.. (I know ooo is huge and texlive too, but ooo and texlive are necessary).

What are you doing with your personal repo? Are you using it to sync other public repos? If not, then there is no reason at all to download the entire community repo. If your entire argument is based on wanting to remove a package from one of the official repos just so you can save some time when upgrading your personal computer by having a full copy of sync, I would call you egocentric. That is not a valid reason and it undermines your argument.

If this is not the case, please clarify.

I maintain like 6 or more pcs with arch at home, so I don't like to download the things 6 times from internet, I bet this is not only my case, for example, a computer lab on an University of my country use arch in every machine, (600+ machines), they should have a local repo to update those machines eventually, I don't think that they are considering to spend their bandwidth in games...

...

...
Anyway, just for the record, I am trying to do a calling for maintainers with huge packages not necessary (like games), please please please, think in the bandwidth and disk space of some other people, =).

...
Angel Velásquez

Again, what is "necessary" according to you and what bandwidth are we talking about here? If this really is just for your personal repo?

Is not just for my personal repo, and nexuiz isn't the only case, there are other packages which are in AUR and are huge that can be added to this new repo [games] (so this repo will rocks for many "gamers") but of course, non-gamers won't have to download it..

...

Also note that in my first reply I offered to move Nexuiz to the AUR, stating the pros and cons that such a move would entail. I hope that some other TUs will weigh in on this discussion and post their thoughts on my previous suggestion.

Yes I read your thoughts I hope you understood the concept of what means "games" and "productivity software. For now, I will take the idea of Abhishek about limiting the mb (on my local repo) and I will suggest this on the wiki article. Btw, a couple of people wrote in this thread without knowing about what I am talking about, let me point them [0] [0] http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Local_Mirror And btw, some people should read the history of the mailing list, for example, it was discussed about removing categories from community/AUR weeks ago, I am not sure if that was accepted on a SVP (read TU Guidelines please). <off-topic>P.S: Daenyth, stop saying arguments about my attitude and complaining about it, I told that this is nothing personal against anybody, if you will still telling that I was "crotchety" or asking "who are I to say whatever", I will start thinking that you got it personally TO YOU, in that case, I never mentioned you (just your repo) and you shouldn't take the things in that way, just an advice for your health.</off-topic> Thanks Abhishek. -- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Linux Counter: #359909

Daenyth Blank

5:18 p.m.

2009/5/3 Angel Velásquez :

...

<off-topic>P.S: Daenyth, stop saying arguments about my attitude and complaining about it, I told that this is nothing personal against anybody, if you will still telling that I was "crotchety" or asking "who are I to say whatever", I will start thinking that you got it personally TO YOU, in that case, I never mentioned you (just your repo) and you shouldn't take the things in that way, just an advice for your health.</off-topic> Firstly, Why should I not respond? This is a public mailing list, anyone can reply. I found it relevent to do so as you felt the need to insult another community member. It doesn't matter that it wasn't me, it's not acceptable behavior.

And seriously, "for my health"? Amazing, first time I've been threatened over the internet. You rock.

Arkham

5:32 p.m.

On 03/mag/09, at 19:18, Daenyth Blank wrote:

...

2009/5/3 Angel Velásquez :

...
you shouldn't take the things in that way, just an advice for your health.</off-topic>

And seriously, "for my health"? Amazing, first time I've been threatened over the internet. You rock.

Actually I think that "for your health" wasn't intended as a menace but more like a medical advice, such as "Don't get too upset".

Angel Velásquez

5:44 p.m.

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Arkham wrote:

...

On 03/mag/09, at 19:18, Daenyth Blank wrote:

...
2009/5/3 Angel Velásquez :

...
you shouldn't take the things in that way, just an advice for your health.</off-topic>

And seriously, "for my health"? Amazing, first time I've been threatened over the internet. You rock.

Actually I think that "for your health" wasn't intended as a menace but more like a medical advice, such as "Don't get too upset".

Exactly Arkham, seriously Daenyth, I don't know if you are *threatened* everyday (but I will supose it for your actions, and the fact that you are afraid to use your real name over internet), or your ego is *too high* to think that other people are thinking in threat you.. as I said on IRC, "calm down, I am here, everything is gonna be alright, breathe" please :). Of course, my english shouldn't unsterstable at all, but think that *i am threathing you* haha .. is just funny, thanks for make my day. Thanks for the suggestion Magnus, this will be a solution, the unique problem is that I will have to configure a caching proxy for home :/ and I really feel tired to do that, but now I will consider it seriously. +1 for you too -- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Linux Counter: #359909

Roberto Alsina

5:57 p.m.

On Sunday 03 May 2009 14:44:16 Angel Velásquez wrote:

...

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Arkham wrote:

...
On 03/mag/09, at 19:18, Daenyth Blank wrote:

...
2009/5/3 Angel Velásquez :

...
you shouldn't take the things in that way, just an advice for your health.</off-topic>

And seriously, "for my health"? Amazing, first time I've been threatened over the internet. You rock.

Actually I think that "for your health" wasn't intended as a menace but more like a medical advice, such as "Don't get too upset".

Exactly Arkham, seriously Daenyth, I don't know if you are *threatened* everyday (but I will supose it for your actions, and the fact that you are afraid to use your real name over internet), or your ego is *too high* to think that other people are thinking in threat you.. as I said on IRC, "calm down, I am here, everything is gonna be alright, breathe" please :). Of course, my english shouldn't unsterstable at all, but think that *i am threathing you* haha .. is just funny, thanks for make my day.

Thanks for the suggestion Magnus, this will be a solution, the unique problem is that I will have to configure a caching proxy for home :/ and I really feel tired to do that, but now I will consider it seriously. +1 for you too

You could use a silly simple caching proy like http-replicator for this job. -- ("\''/").__..-''"`-. . Roberto Alsina `9_ 9 ) `-. ( ).`-._.`) KDE Developer (MFCH) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._`. " -.-' http://lateral.netmanagers.com.ar _..`-'_..-_/ /-'_.' The 6,855th most popular site of Slovenia (l)-'' ((i).' ((!.' according to alexa.com (27/5/2007) "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs, I said. We have a protractor. Okay, I’ll go home and see if I can scrounge up a ruler and a piece of string." — Neal Stephenson

Magnus Therning

5:35 p.m.

Angel Velásquez wrote: [... snip ...]

...

I maintain like 6 or more pcs with arch at home, so I don't like to download the things 6 times from internet, I bet this is not only my case, for example, a computer lab on an University of my country use arch in every machine, (600+ machines), they should have a local repo to update those machines eventually, I don't think that they are considering to spend their bandwidth in games...

May I instead suggest you use a caching proxy for your downloading of Arch packages? That way you download only what you need, _and_ you do it only once. /M -- Magnus Therning (OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4) magnus＠therning．org Jabber: magnus＠therning．org http://therning.org/magnus identi.ca|twitter: magthe

Xyne

6:47 p.m.

Magnus Therning wrote:

...

May I instead suggest you use a caching proxy for your downloading of Arch packages? That way you download only what you need, _and_ you do it only once.

/M

Or you can just use pkgd, which is specifically designed for this very purpose: http://xyne.archlinux.ca/info/pkgd

Magnus Therning

7:32 p.m.

Xyne wrote:

...

Magnus Therning wrote:

...
May I instead suggest you use a caching proxy for your downloading of Arch packages? That way you download only what you need, _and_ you do it only once.

/M

Or you can just use pkgd, which is specifically designed for this very purpose: http://xyne.archlinux.ca/info/pkgd

Cool, didn't even know of its existence. /M -- Magnus Therning (OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4) magnus＠therning．org Jabber: magnus＠therning．org http://therning.org/magnus identi.ca|twitter: magthe

Smartboy

7:43 p.m.

2009/5/3 Angel Velásquez :

...

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Xyne wrote:

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What defines "necessary" when dealing with community packages? I thought core and extra were for "necessary" packages while community was for packages that the community wanted. Where does necessity enter into it? Community wasn't even enabled by default before and yet people managed to run their systems. This seems to be the definition of another word on which we disagree.

Common sens people, games are not necessary software, games are optional software, necessary software is that which means "productivity" or "required" (like drivers, etc).

I hope you don't mind if I chime in here, since I'm not a TU, but a lot of software isn't necessary and are just optional software. For example, are desktop environments like GNOME/KDE/XFCE necessary when we have perfectly good window managers, panels, and other things which do the same thing? What about OpenOffice/KOffice/GNOME Office/etc? People don't need those, and (imo) learning LaTeX increases productivity. It follows the same line of thought. While you don't find the games necessary, other people do, as games can get rid of stress after a hard day at work (for example). Smartboy

Loui

4 May 4 May

11:11 a.m.

2009/5/4 Angel Velásquez :

...

Common sens people, games are not necessary software, games are optional software, necessary software is that which means "productivity" or "required" (like drivers, etc).

Games may be required for gaming computers. I don't think that Arch really dictates what you should be using the distro for. It may be programming, accounting, communicating, or gaming perhaps.

Jan de Groot

12:02 a.m.

On Sun, 2009-05-03 at 12:05 +1930, Angel Velásquez wrote:

...

A solution could be:

a) Creating an official repo called [games] or something like, where TUs and Devs can put games there (huge games principally.

b) Definetively not upload games to the repos

I am the administrator of two official mirrors, and watching this situation I am really worried if packages > 250 mb (games) will be downloaded / updated eventually and I will have to waste GBs on this.

Please don't take this personal, but IIRC "Gerolde" was suffering for the lack of space months ago, and even if this package and those huge popular games > 250 mb doesn't merely to be on the official repos, frankly (but thanks for the effort to waste the disk space Xyne!).

Anyway, that's my humble opinion.

c) splitting up the package in a game and a game-data package, where game-data is architecture-independent using the -any architecture. The -any architecture is still work in progress, but it will get there. Besides nexuiz, there's also Battle for Wesnoth in the extra repository that could use this treatment. Not only does it save disk space, it will also save bandwidth for the ones who upload and for the ones who mirror.

Angel Velásquez

2:13 p.m.

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Jan de Groot wrote:

...

On Sun, 2009-05-03 at 12:05 +1930, Angel Velásquez wrote:

...
A solution could be:

a) Creating an official repo called [games] or something like, where TUs and Devs can put games there (huge games principally.

b) Definetively not upload games to the repos

I am the administrator of two official mirrors, and watching this situation I am really worried if packages > 250 mb (games) will be downloaded / updated eventually and I will have to waste GBs on this.

Please don't take this personal, but IIRC "Gerolde" was suffering for the lack of space months ago, and even if this package and those huge popular games > 250 mb doesn't merely to be on the official repos, frankly (but thanks for the effort to waste the disk space Xyne!).

Anyway, that's my humble opinion.

c) splitting up the package in a game and a game-data package, where game-data is architecture-independent using the -any architecture.

The -any architecture is still work in progress, but it will get there. Besides nexuiz, there's also Battle for Wesnoth in the extra repository that could use this treatment. Not only does it save disk space, it will also save bandwidth for the ones who upload and for the ones who mirror.

This should work btw, i don't know if the split option are active now in the makepkg, but I saw a thread with an example of Allan, I assume at least is closer to be done, then we should wait until -any architecture 8-). On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Loui wrote:

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2009/5/4 Angel Velásquez :

...
Common sens people, games are not necessary software, games are optional software, necessary software is that which means "productivity" or "required" (like drivers, etc).

Games may be required for gaming computers. I don't think that Arch really dictates what you should be using the distro for. It may be programming, accounting, communicating, or gaming perhaps.

Yes but in times of saving space of bandwidth, no matter how harder you want to think that gaming are as necessary like programming, accounting, and other areas ;) But Jan's solution, should works for all, and everybody will be happy :) Cheers! -- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Linux Counter: #359909

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25 comments

15 participants

participants (15)

Abhishek Dasgupta
Andrei Thorp
Angel Velásquez
Arkham
Chris Brannon
Daenyth Blank
Florian Pritz
Jan de Groot
José Valecillos
Loui
Magnus Therning
Roberto Alsina
Smartboy
Vinzenz Vietzke
Xyne