Em Sexta-feira 31 Julho 2009, às 16:38:33, Stefan Husmann escreveu:

Laszlo Papp schrieb:

...

Hello,

I'd like to formally express my interest in becoming a Trusted User. My name is Laszlo Papp and I'm addicted to archlinux. :) I'm a 23 year old from Hungary, working at a resourcement/development company as Embedded Linux Developer.

I've been using Linux for more than 7 years. I used Gentoo until early 2008, and I learned a great deal about Linux in the process. I settled on Arch more than 1 year ago, nearly 1 and half :) Moving to Arch was easy for me, because of my years of experience with Gentoo. I was very attracted by the lack of dominance of money and business world and by the warm and friendly community.

I have got some experience in Assembly, C, VHDL languages. I have written some open source usb kernel driver (for Passport Reader, Fingerprint Reader, etc.), and a pci kernel driver. I've worked with PIC, AVR microcontrollers, DSP processors, ARM architecture, and FPGA design. I deal with Blackfin DSP board with Embedded Linux on it recently, and I try to help to write C/ASM API for this.

My username on the BBS, AUR, Wiki, Bugs, and Freenode is djszapi. Mainly my contribution to archlinux community was on this sites. See the following URL for my packages in AUR: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?SeB=m&K=djszapi

I think that Arch does not have a significant presence in the embedded development area of community. I wish to make Arch a viable choice for an embedded developer, by maintaining more popular embedded development related packages in [community]. My Second purpose to do the best support in Arch for vim editor. I like to work from a text console, with framebuffer, and vim :) As a TU, I will offer my knowledge and time to improve my favourite distribution and also the open source world, which gave me so much in the last few years.

I would like to add these packages to the [community] repo. 1. AVR microprocessor: avarice, avra, avr-gdb, kontrollerlab, simulavr, tavrasm, uisp, gnome-avrdude 2. PIC microprocessor: picasm, picp, picprog, pikdev, piklab, pk2cmd 3. Blackfin Digital Signal Processor: blackfin-toolchain-elf 4. Tinyos: nesc, tinyos, tinyos-tools 5. ARM architecture: openocd-svn 6. Picoblaze Softcore processor: kpicosim 7. FPGA design: ghdl-bin, verilator 8. Some common, like usb-serial converter driver: libftd2xx.

Feel free to ask me, if something is obscure or you would like to know more about me.

Thanks to Stefan Husmann for sponsoring me.

Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

Hello TUs and other listmates,

I am glad to sponsor Laszlo for his TU applicance. He is very active on forums and this list, and I think his goals in making Arch Linux a preferred Linux distribution for embedded Linux developers can make Arch more popular. His packaging skills are very well, and I think he would be a valuable team member.

So let us consider his applicance and discuss it in the next five days.

Regards, Stefan

Hi, I have been talking with Lazlo recently and i just want to point that he does want to become part of the team and seem to have the required skills. Good luck, Lazlo =)

Laszlo Papp wrote:

Hello,

I'd like to formally express my interest in becoming a Trusted User. My name is Laszlo Papp and I'm addicted to archlinux. :) I'm a 23 year old from Hungary, working at a resourcement/development company as Embedded Linux Developer.

I've been using Linux for more than 7 years. I used Gentoo until early 2008, and I learned a great deal about Linux in the process. I settled on Arch more than 1 year ago, nearly 1 and half :) Moving to Arch was easy for me, because of my years of experience with Gentoo. I was very attracted by the lack of dominance of money and business world and by the warm and friendly community.

I have got some experience in Assembly, C, VHDL languages. I have written some open source usb kernel driver (for Passport Reader, Fingerprint Reader, etc.), and a pci kernel driver. I've worked with PIC, AVR microcontrollers, DSP processors, ARM architecture, and FPGA design. I deal with Blackfin DSP board with Embedded Linux on it recently, and I try to help to write C/ASM API for this.

My username on the BBS, AUR, Wiki, Bugs, and Freenode is djszapi. Mainly my contribution to archlinux community was on this sites. See the following URL for my packages in AUR: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?SeB=m&K=djszapi

I think that Arch does not have a significant presence in the embedded development area of community. I wish to make Arch a viable choice for an embedded developer, by maintaining more popular embedded development related packages in [community]. My Second purpose to do the best support in Arch for vim editor. I like to work from a text console, with framebuffer, and vim :) As a TU, I will offer my knowledge and time to improve my favourite distribution and also the open source world, which gave me so much in the last few years.

I would like to add these packages to the [community] repo. 1. AVR microprocessor: avarice, avra, avr-gdb, kontrollerlab, simulavr, tavrasm, uisp, gnome-avrdude 2. PIC microprocessor: picasm, picp, picprog, pikdev, piklab, pk2cmd 3. Blackfin Digital Signal Processor: blackfin-toolchain-elf 4. Tinyos: nesc, tinyos, tinyos-tools 5. ARM architecture: openocd-svn 6. Picoblaze Softcore processor: kpicosim 7. FPGA design: ghdl-bin, verilator 8. Some common, like usb-serial converter driver: libftd2xx.

Feel free to ask me, if something is obscure or you would like to know more about me.

Thanks to Stefan Husmann for sponsoring me.

Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

not many days ago you asked be if is frustrating to have 300 packages in comparative with the number of packages that some TUs have. i see that you got now only 78 packages. Can i asked you why did you got rid of the rest? you picked up only the good ones? http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?O=0&K=vim&do_Orphans=Orphans&detail=1&L=0&C=0&SeB=nd&SB=n&SO=a&PP=25 -- Ionut

Biru Ionut wrote

not many days ago you asked be if is frustrating to have 300 packages in comparative with the number of packages that some TUs have. i see that you got now only 78 packages. Can i asked you why did you got rid of the rest? you picked up only the good ones?

http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?O=0&K=vim&do_Orphans=Orphans&detail=1&L=0&C=0&SeB=nd&SB=n&SO=a&PP=25

Hello Birot, of course you may ask any question but can you please explain why you think the packages Laszlo orphaned are worse than the packageges he kept? IMHO reconsidering priorities is a right every user has, TU or not. Regards, Stefan

I would like to add these packages to the [community] repo. 1. AVR microprocessor: avarice, avra, avr-gdb, kontrollerlab, simulavr, tavrasm, uisp, gnome-avrdude 2. PIC microprocessor: picasm, picp, picprog, pikdev, piklab, pk2cmd 3. Blackfin Digital Signal Processor: blackfin-toolchain-elf 4. Tinyos: nesc, tinyos, tinyos-tools 5. ARM architecture: openocd-svn 6. Picoblaze Softcore processor: kpicosim 7. FPGA design: ghdl-bin, verilator 8. Some common, like usb-serial converter driver: libftd2xx.

Feel free to ask me, if something is obscure or you would like to know more about me.

Thanks to Stefan Husmann for sponsoring me.

Best Regards, Laszlo Papp Hi Laszlo . I know this thread is for TUs only and your offer to be asked was for

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 09:32:39PM +0200, Laszlo Papp wrote: <snip> them exclusively . But I really have to ask this question : Why did you send me an e-mail asking me If I'm still with Arch & If you can maintain my pkg "spim" ? The package wasn't an orphan , out of date or dysfunctional . I replied asking you to give me feedback or suggest improvements . I suggested that you should have done this via a comment in the 1st place because the notification system was implemented for a reason & maintainers subscribe for notifications to keep up-to-date with users' comments . It really felt weired when you didn't leave a comment or e-mail me back . I thought packages get disowned because they need immediate care . I was actually not happy with the possibility of losing a package for no good reason (If I was on vacation at the time for example) .

I've been speaking to Laszlo over the past month and the impression that I get is that he really doesn't understand boundaries when it comes to communication. This can become extremely frustrating for the person he is talking to. When we first started talking, he asked me about many past TUs, and about the reasons they quit, etc. I wondered why he wouldn't speak to them directly instead of bothering me with such questions. There has been multiple times that he has asked me for solutions to very trivial problems. To make things worse, in one instance, he would shoot down every one of my offered solutions. Instead of choosing the most relevant route of communication, he will choose the method that he believes will give him the fastest response, no matter if it may cause disruption. Example: He asks the same question to some of us directly via Jabber rather than asking in an IRC channel (which we are all present in), even after being asked to stop. Example: He would contact me directly about something on the mailing list that I had no involvement in, rather than sending an email to that mailing list. He has recently become extremely annoying. His application does look impeccable though. It's partly the result of lots of feedback from me, and probably other Trusted Users. I don't know if this should be a barrier to becoming a Trusted User, but the fact is that I'm wary about working with him, and I can imagine that other users might feel the same way. I admire Laszlo's enthusiasm, and respect his goals but I don't think he would be a good candidate for a Trusted User right now.

On Fri 31 Jul 2009 22:19 -0300, Douglas Soares de Andrade wrote:

...

I admire Laszlo's enthusiasm, and respect his goals but I don't think he would be a good candidate for a Trusted User right now.

You said all i think. I also admire his enthusiasm, but it is not the time for him.

I told him that he should not adopt all these packages, even because i could not analize packages that he was not the owner. He agreed and then sliced almost 60% of current owned packages.

Well, you can still search the AUR for packages by submitter. http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?O=0&K=djszapi&SeB=s

Sorry about the novel... Biru Ionut wrote:

not many days ago you asked be if is frustrating to have 300 packages in comparative with the number of packages that some TUs have. i see that you got now only 78 packages. Can i asked you why did you got rid of the rest? you picked up only the good ones?

Allan McRae wrote:

...

Daniel J Griffiths wrote: I don't think the issue was that the orphaned packages were worse per se, I think the issue was that recently he had been bragging about how he had more packages than most TUs/Devs as if it was a status thing, and putting down some of us for it... Now all of a sudden he dumps the majority of his packages. Just seems a bit hypocritical.

My guess is that it is because we tend to associate huge numbers of packages with not enough time to maintain them and thus lower quality (something I had discussed with him earlier). So I believe this to be more of an optimizing the changes of being a TU rather than a reassessment of priorities. Orphaning the several hundred vim plugins/themes only a couple of weeks after putting them there is a bit weird.

My personal opinion is that uploading good-quality packages to the AUR doesn't hurt even if you decide to orphan them quickly. They provide a starting poing for anyone else looking for those packages. See below though. Allan McRae wrote:

I don't vote on TU matters anymore, but I will put this out there. The recent spike in Laszlo's activities leads me to be concerned about longevity and some accuracy in his original application. He claims to be using Arch for ~1 1/2 years. But it was only two moths ago I saw him on IRC asking some fairly basic questions about pacman features and what was the equivalent to doing some emerge (Gentoo) operations. Two months also corresponds to his here registered on the forums. That concerns me, but I could be entirely wrong here.

Allan

Loui Chang wrote:

I've been speaking to Laszlo over the past month and the impression that I get is that he really doesn't understand boundaries when it comes to communication. This can become extremely frustrating for the person he is talking to.

When we first started talking, he asked me about many past TUs, and about the reasons they quit, etc. I wondered why he wouldn't speak to them directly instead of bothering me with such questions.

There has been multiple times that he has asked me for solutions to very trivial problems. To make things worse, in one instance, he would shoot down every one of my offered solutions.

Instead of choosing the most relevant route of communication, he will choose the method that he believes will give him the fastest response, no matter if it may cause disruption.

Example: He asks the same question to some of us directly via Jabber rather than asking in an IRC channel (which we are all present in), even after being asked to stop.

Example: He would contact me directly about something on the mailing list that I had no involvement in, rather than sending an email to that mailing list.

He has recently become extremely annoying.

His application does look impeccable though. It's partly the result of lots of feedback from me, and probably other Trusted Users.

I don't know if this should be a barrier to becoming a Trusted User, but the fact is that I'm wary about working with him, and I can imagine that other users might feel the same way.

I admire Laszlo's enthusiasm, and respect his goals but I don't think he would be a good candidate for a Trusted User right now.

From the introductory message, I think Laszlo's technical experience is impressive. I think that having a TU who focuses on making Arch a viable alternative for embedded systems would be a great asset to Arch overall. Looking over his PKGBUILDs I would say that most of them look good at first glance.*

I haven't particularly focused on Laszlo in the mailing list although I have been aware of his name popping up in the "From" column recently. I did instantly recognize his forum avatar though, although I hadn't connected that account to the posts on this list. In the last week or so I've been very aware of Laszlo posting on the forum. He is very often the first to respond in thread when someone is seeking help. My impression has been that his posts often come across as agressive or overly enthusiastic (the two are easily mistaken). He does provide useful information in some cases, but often it feels as though he would be shouting at someone face-to-face.** I realize that this may be a cultural and/or linguistic issue and the latter is not something that I would criticize someone for. The finer nuances of tone is easily lost in written communication even among native speakers, but still, it does come off quite abrasively sometimes. What concerns me the most though, in conjunction with Allan's and Loui's remarks above, is the very real possibility that Laszlo is attempting to socially engineer his way to becoming a TU. I present this merely as an idea and I honestly do not mean to offend anyone if this is not the case. It just seems suspicious that his forum activity has increase so much just shortly before posting an application, especially if he's been using Arch for nearly one and a half years, as he states in his introductory message (and as Allan points out, the statement's he made there do not fit well with registration dates or the types of questions that he was asking other TUs recently). It feels like he's trying to game points by being visibly "helpful". "Bragging" about how many packages he was maintaining, as Ghost1227 put it, seems in line with this idea. I would suggest looking over his forum and mailing list posts with this in mind, especially the ones which appear to jump in on answers that have already been given. I'll leave that there for now though so as not to overly bias anyone's opinion before they've given this more consideration. As I said, this may be just a cultural/linguistic issue. A lot of enthusiasm can easily come across the wrong way too, but at this point I remain hesitant about this application. I really don't expect my opinion to weigh in that much though because I still feel like "the new guy" here. ;) * I'm not sure what the symlinks are doing in this one though: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/libftd2xx/libftd2xx/PKGBUILD and there are a few that still have "$startdir" in them, but I see that you're in the process of changing them so that's not an issue at all: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/nesc/nesc/PKGBUILD **examples: from a previous mailing list message, before the user could even reply to Biro's message: "Follow suggestion from Biro Ionut!" A forum-thread: http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=77032

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 4:14 AM, Xyne wrote:

Sorry about the novel...

My personal opinion is that uploading good-quality packages to the AUR doesn't hurt even if you decide to orphan them quickly. They provide a starting poing for anyone else looking for those packages.

See below though. From the introductory message, I think Laszlo's technical experience is impressive. I think that having a TU who focuses on making Arch a viable alternative for embedded systems would be a great asset to Arch overall. Looking over his PKGBUILDs I would say that most of them look good at first glance.*

I haven't particularly focused on Laszlo in the mailing list although I have been aware of his name popping up in the "From" column recently. I did instantly recognize his forum avatar though, although I hadn't connected that account to the posts on this list.

In the last week or so I've been very aware of Laszlo posting on the forum. He is very often the first to respond in thread when someone is seeking help. My impression has been that his posts often come across as agressive or overly enthusiastic (the two are easily mistaken). He does provide useful information in some cases, but often it feels as though he would be shouting at someone face-to-face.** I realize that this may be a cultural and/or linguistic issue and the latter is not something that I would criticize someone for. The finer nuances of tone is easily lost in written communication even among native speakers, but still, it does come off quite abrasively sometimes.

What concerns me the most though, in conjunction with Allan's and Loui's remarks above, is the very real possibility that Laszlo is attempting to socially engineer his way to becoming a TU. I present this merely as an idea and I honestly do not mean to offend anyone if this is not the case. It just seems suspicious that his forum activity has increase so much just shortly before posting an application, especially if he's been using Arch for nearly one and a half years, as he states in his introductory message (and as Allan points out, the statement's he made there do not fit well with registration dates or the types of questions that he was asking other TUs recently).

It feels like he's trying to game points by being visibly "helpful". "Bragging" about how many packages he was maintaining, as Ghost1227 put it, seems in line with this idea. I would suggest looking over his forum and mailing list posts with this in mind, especially the ones which appear to jump in on answers that have already been given. I'll leave that there for now though so as not to overly bias anyone's opinion before they've given this more consideration.

Archlinux Contribution isn't my short distance plan only. I like to do it, I like to give helping hand for the newbies. I wouldn't like to be a Social Engineer or a one who expect respect from others. I just try to do my best in this activity. I don't have any background purpose with forum/maillist posts, because it wouldn't be good to do this with that distribution/community which counts for me so much. I wouldn't have liked to brag with my packages, it wouldn't be the best habit, correct from anybody, I think so too. Then I've just realised the TUs said, lesser, cleaner packages are better.

As I said, this may be just a cultural/linguistic issue. A lot of enthusiasm can easily come across the wrong way too, but at this point I remain hesitant about this application. I really don't expect my opinion to weigh in that much though because I still feel like "the new guy" here. ;)

* I'm not sure what the symlinks are doing in this one though: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/libftd2xx/libftd2xx/PKGBUILD

It makes the symlinks to the present version of library/archive.

and there are a few that still have "$startdir" in them, but I see that you're in the process of changing them so that's not an issue at all: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/nesc/nesc/PKGBUILD

Oops, I've forgotten to update, solved, thanks.

**examples: from a previous mailing list message, before the user could even reply to Biro's message: "Follow suggestion from Biro Ionut!" A forum-thread: http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=77032

It was just a confirmation I think, like the well-known '+1' :) No problem about novel, thank you once more time the reply. Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

2009/7/31, Loui Chang :

I've been speaking to Laszlo over the past month and the impression that I get is that he really doesn't understand boundaries when it comes to communication. This can become extremely frustrating for the person he is talking to.

When we first started talking, he asked me about many past TUs, and about the reasons they quit, etc. I wondered why he wouldn't speak to them directly instead of bothering me with such questions.

There has been multiple times that he has asked me for solutions to very trivial problems. To make things worse, in one instance, he would shoot down every one of my offered solutions.

Instead of choosing the most relevant route of communication, he will choose the method that he believes will give him the fastest response, no matter if it may cause disruption.

Example: He asks the same question to some of us directly via Jabber rather than asking in an IRC channel (which we are all present in), even after being asked to stop.

Example: He would contact me directly about something on the mailing list that I had no involvement in, rather than sending an email to that mailing list.

He has recently become extremely annoying.

His application does look impeccable though. It's partly the result of lots of feedback from me, and probably other Trusted Users.

I don't know if this should be a barrier to becoming a Trusted User, but the fact is that I'm wary about working with him, and I can imagine that other users might feel the same way.

I admire Laszlo's enthusiasm, and respect his goals but I don't think he would be a good candidate for a Trusted User right now.

I don't vote on TU matters anymore, but I totally agree with you. -- Arch Linux Developer http://www.archlinux.org http://www.archlinux.it

Well, I'm not a TU, and can't vote, but keep in mind, what a TU is, what TU means and what a TU's task is. I don't want to offend Laszlo, and I'm probably doing him wrong. I guess you TUs know this anyway, but let me say it anyhow. Trusted User doesn't mean, he likes Arch Linux - I like it, too -, he likes to contribute to Arch Linux and to the community. Trusted User means, that this user is completely trustworthy and that this user can be completely trusted especially in security-related stuff. There are so many doubts about Laszlo, that I don't think, that he is really trustworthy. I, too, have my doubts about it. And keep in mind, that not only other TUs but also every other normal user must trust a TU. The task of a TU is not to maintain a few - maybe 300 - packages in AUR. This can do every user. Writing documentations in the Wiki can also be done by every normal user. And every normal user can help other people in the forums. Btw., I don't know, why someone needs to maintain or at least contribute 300 packages in or to AUR. Most of them - except of about 2 or 3 - are vim plugins anyway. I only maintain a few packages I need myself, so that I can test them, before I upload them to AUR. I don't think, that I could do it with 300 packages. The task of a TU is especially maintaining and compiling packages in the community binary repository and to do administrative and security related stuff in the AUR like orphaning packages etc. A TU needs to be able to write working and trustworthy PKGBUILDs, and a TU needs some more than only basic scripting skills, because some applications need PKGBUILDs which are not quite trivial, the people - every Arch Linux user - rely on and trust the binary repositories in terms of security and stability. I don't see this with Laszlo. Particularly see the symlink thing in his PKGBUILD for the library. If he was a Gentoo user for more than a year - I was one for about 6 years -, he should know, that a library doesn't have to be symlinked to keep or get reverse dependencies compatible to updated libraries. See revdep-rebuild, which every Gentoo user knows only too well. Symlinking a library can only be a quick and dirty workaround locally on one PC until the reverse depedency is rebuilt or fixed. If such a symlink is needed by another package, than he should file a feature request to upstream. So this shows me, that Laszlo doesn't have enough scripting and packaging skills, at least not enough to be able to build and maintain packages in a semi-official binary repository, which every user trusts. I also read his comment in the forums, which Xyne posted here. Well the "Welcome to the forum" can be seen friendly. But then he writes "We must realize whether...", and just repeats, what Allan has already written. For me it sounds as he feels like already being a developer, or that he wants to presume to be one. I don't know Laszlo's intention, and I can do him wrong, but somehow it looks like craving for recognition, there are at least doubts. So I don't know, if I could trust him enough. I'd suggest, not to make him a TU. I think there are enough things, he can do for Arch Linux and the community without being a TU. If he will prove beyond doubt in the future, that his attitude is good, his scripting and packaging skills are even better, and he is really trustworthy, then this can be discussed again and it can be voted again about making him a TU, but not too early. I think, there's no hurry. Heiko

Hello Nezmer! You won't lose your packages if they are updated, work fine, and you are active in Archlinux community, I think so. I've seen example for that the maintainer wasn't available anymore, and someone could adopt his package. But i accepted your mail reply, consideration, thanks again. Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

Heiko Baums schrieb:

Well, I'm not a TU, and can't vote, but keep in mind, what a TU is, what TU means and what a TU's task is.

I don't want to offend Laszlo, and I'm probably doing him wrong.

I guess you TUs know this anyway, but let me say it anyhow.

Trusted User doesn't mean, he likes Arch Linux - I like it, too -, he likes to contribute to Arch Linux and to the community. Trusted User means, that this user is completely trustworthy and that this user can be completely trusted especially in security-related stuff.

I must say I am really shocked about that statement. What makes you think so? do you have a technical problem with one of his packages?

There are so many doubts about Laszlo, that I don't think, that he is really trustworthy. I, too, have my doubts about it. And keep in mind, that not only other TUs but also every other normal user must trust a TU.

I that would be true, we cannot have any TUs. There may always exist a user who is paranoid about any specific person. These doubts should not be published on mailing lists if there is no concrete case that has happend. Also, even if there is a concrete case, we are humans and make mistakes. And we are able and willing to correct them, to learn and not to do them again.

The task of a TU is not to maintain a few - maybe 300 - packages in AUR. This can do every user. Writing documentations in the Wiki can also be done by every normal user. And every normal user can help other people in the forums.

Sure can these things be done by any user. But one of the latest applicances was done because someone was very helpful on AUR bug day. And it turned out that he is a very good TU.

Btw., I don't know, why someone needs to maintain or at least contribute 300 packages in or to AUR. Most of them - except of about 2 or 3 - are vim plugins anyway.

so what?

I only maintain a few packages I need myself, so that I can test them, before I upload them to AUR. I don't think, that I could do it with 300 packages.

That point has been often discussed. Noone uses so much packages on adaily basis. But if every TU only maintains packages he or she actually uses, we would have, let's say, about 200 or 300 packages in [community]. I am quite sure there would be an outcry if we stop maintaining [community]-packages we do not use often.

The task of a TU is especially maintaining and compiling packages in the community binary repository and to do administrative and security related stuff in the AUR like orphaning packages etc. A TU needs to be able to write working and trustworthy PKGBUILDs, and a TU needs some more than only basic scripting skills, because some applications need PKGBUILDs which are not quite trivial, the people - every Arch Linux user - rely on and trust the binary repositories in terms of security and stability. I don't see this with Laszlo.

Why not? He is kernel developer! Where do you see "only basic scripting skills"?

Particularly see the symlink thing in his PKGBUILD for the library.

What do you mean?

If he was a Gentoo user for more than a year - I was one for about 6 years -, he should know, that a library doesn't have to be symlinked to keep or get reverse dependencies compatible to updated libraries. See revdep-rebuild, which every Gentoo user knows only too well. Symlinking a library can only be a quick and dirty workaround locally on one PC until the reverse depedency is rebuilt or fixed. If such a symlink is needed by another package, than he should file a feature request to upstream. So this shows me, that Laszlo doesn't have enough scripting and packaging skills, at least not enough to be able to build and maintain packages in a semi-official binary repository, which every user trusts.

We can discuss this point, but can a single package destroy trusts in a person? The majority of Laszlo's packages give me the impression that his skills are good enough. If you find one that is bad, make suggestions how it can be made better, but do not say you do not trust him.

I also read his comment in the forums, which Xyne posted here.

Well the "Welcome to the forum" can be seen friendly. But then he writes "We must realize whether...", and just repeats, what Allan has already written. For me it sounds as he feels like already being a developer, or that he wants to presume to be one. I don't know Laszlo's intention, and I can do him wrong, but somehow it looks like craving for recognition, there are at least doubts.

So I don't know, if I could trust him enough.

Well, you will never know. You cannot look into someones head. I cannot see any reasons to not trust Laszlo's willingness and skills to be a good TU. Sorry for the long reply. Regards Stefan

Am Sun, 02 Aug 2009 01:23:37 +0200 schrieb Stefan Husmann :

I must say I am really shocked about that statement. What makes you think so? do you have a technical problem with one of his packages?

Shocked? Hmmm... That was not my intention. Ok, maybe I was a bit too exaggerated. How do I come out of this thing? ;-) I know, not at all. :-) I hadn't installed his packages, yet. And actually I don't mean him personally. I just wanted to stress out, that a TU includes the word trusted, and I don't know, if somebody can be trusted enough, if there are too many doubts about him as it was mentioned by other people here in the mailing list.

I that would be true, we cannot have any TUs.

Why? Well, I don't know any TUs personally. But what I realized since I'm using Arch Linux - it was the same on Gentoo - is that the TUs and the Arch Linux developers have pretty good programming, scripting and administrative skills.

There may always exist a user who is paranoid about any specific person. These doubts should not be published on mailing lists if there is no concrete case that has happend. Also, even if there is a concrete case, we are humans and make mistakes. And we are able and willing to correct them, to learn and not to do them again.

I know, I'm sometimes a bit paranoid. ;-) I didn't want to offend Laszlo, and I don't know Laszlo personally. So I didn't want to attack him personally. I just wanted to explain my thoughts I had, when reading this thread. Of course everybody makes mistakes. That was not my point. I don't know it, but I think a certain knowledge should be there. I risk my neck with careless talk now. Maybe I shouldn't have written my comment. ;-) I currently can't explain, what I meant exactly. I know, that I'm quite direct, sometimes too direct.

Sure can these things be done by any user. But one of the latest applicances was done because someone was very helpful on AUR bug day. And it turned out that he is a very good TU.

As I've written in my second e-mail - maybe I shouldn't have written this, too - I don't know how the TUs became TUs, how long they have used Arch Linux before, etc. I didn't want to say, that Laszlo mustn't become a TU. But due to the doubts, it could be better, if he just keeps helping as a normal user. And if he clears out the doubts, which not only I but also some TUs seem to have as it could be read here, then he still can be made to a TU.

so what?

I haven't looked at these PKGBUILDs, so I can be wrong as I can be with all of my doubts and comments. But I haven't built 300 PKGBUILDs, but a few. And there are a few applications, which are quite tricky to get them installed. Of course he can get help, if he builds PKGBUILDs for the community repo. Of course, nobody knows everything. And I don't want to say, that he is not able to build PKGBUILDs at all. But if there are doubts, and some people have doubts about his packaging skills, it's probably not the worst idea, to first contribute PKGBUILDs for some other applications than only vim plugins. Just my two cents.

That point has been often discussed. Noone uses so much packages on adaily basis. But if every TU only maintains packages he or she actually uses, we would have, let's say, about 200 or 300 packages in [community]. I am quite sure there would be an outcry if we stop maintaining [community]-packages we do not use often.

Well, I actually can't contradict. I guess it's the same with core and extra.

Why not? He is kernel developer! Where do you see "only basic scripting skills"?

I've read, that he has written, that he is developer, but I didn't read, what he is developing. Then I guess I need to apologize to Laszlo, what I'm doing saying this.

What do you mean?

Read on in my first e-mail. ;-)

We can discuss this point, but can a single package destroy trusts in a person? The majority of Laszlo's packages give me the impression that his skills are good enough. If you find one that is bad, make suggestions how it can be made better, but do not say you do not trust him.

It was not only this point. As you probably know, I always write bug reports or in AUR comments, if I discover bugs. I would do this with Laszlos packages, too.

Well, you will never know. You cannot look into someones head. I cannot see any reasons to not trust Laszlo's willingness and skills to be a good TU.

Of course. But it was the comments in this thread and the sum of the things, not only one of these points, which made me doubt.

Sorry for the long reply.

Why are you sorry? I think, your answer was quite good and nice. And it cleared up my doubts - at least most of them. I know, that I sometimes put my foot in one's mouth, and that I'm a bit rash with my comments. But I'm willing to learn and you can kick me somewhere, if I utter too much nonsense. ;-) Maybe I just misunderstood him and maybe I was also not too harsh, but too exaggerated. But I always said, that I didn't and don't want to offend him and that I can do him wrong. I did it above, and I think I should do it again. I apologize to Laszlo in every point, where I did him wrong. And Stefan, if I hadn't written about my doubts publicly in the mailing list, you couldn't have sent me your answer. ;-) Heiko

Heiko Baums wrote:

Particularly see the symlink thing in his PKGBUILD for the library. If he was a Gentoo user for more than a year - I was one for about 6 years -, he should know, that a library doesn't have to be symlinked to keep or get reverse dependencies compatible to updated libraries.

I'll just point out that the library symlink in his PKGBUILD was the right type of symlink taht almost every library has on a system. i.e. libfoo.so.0 -> libfoo.so So it is not what I term a "stupid" symlink. Allan

On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 10:50:29PM +0200, Laszlo Papp wrote:

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Heiko Baums wrote:

<snip>

I think it's normal in the descussion period, if something is not clear, we speak about it. Feel free to ask me, if you have got doubts.

Hi Laszlo, I got a look into your packages, this is what came up: PKGBUILD (coldfire) W: Description should not contain the package name. PKGBUILD (eclipse-android) E: Missing md5sums PKGBUILD (huffman) W: Description should not contain the package name. PKGBUILD (koctave3) W: Attempting to use specific sourceforge mirror, use downloads.sourceforge.net instead PKGBUILD (lcdproc-g15) W: Variable license is not an array. PKGBUILD (lcdproc-g15) W: Attempting to use specific sourceforge mirror, use downloads.sourceforge.net instead PKGBUILD (lcdproc-g15) W: Missing Maintainer tag PKGBUILD (libticonv2) W: Missing Maintainer tag PKGBUILD (makedumpfile) E: File referenced in $startdir outside of $startdir/src or $startdir/pkg PKGBUILD (picasm) W: Description should not contain the package name. PKGBUILD (pikdev) W: Variable license is not an array. PKGBUILD (upslug2) W: Missing Maintainer tag PKGBUILD (vim-lustyexplorer) W: Missing Maintainer tag PKGBUILD (yapide) W: Description should not contain the package name. Mainly cosmetic errors. Maybe, as you took the work to add yourself as a maintainer to some PKGBUILDs, why not to check the PKGBUILD as whole and clean up all errors. Namcap is always usefull, as you recommend to others on IRC/BBS. While going through the list of your packages, I also looked on all packages you submitted to AUR. What I find interesting is, that many of them have actually a lot of votes gathered in the very short time they are present in AUR. About the half of all your submitted packages has more than 10 votes already - many of them are simple vim plugins. This looks a bit strange to me. <snip>

...

I can't do it with 300 packages really, I discussed it. I've done the reassessment. Well I accept the opinion from Xyne, It's not a bad thing to contribute packages, even if the user will disown that, because somebody can continue to maintain it, and you can reach those now too from AUR.

Here I have to say, I also don't have a problem in contributing any portion of packages, as long as they stay clean and build fine.

...

The task of a TU is especially maintaining and compiling packages in the community binary repository and to do administrative and security related stuff in the AUR like orphaning packages etc. A TU needs to be able to write working and trustworthy PKGBUILDs, and a TU needs some more than only basic scripting skills, because some applications need PKGBUILDs which are not quite trivial, the people - every Arch Linux user - rely on and trust the binary repositories in terms of security and stability. I don't see this with Laszlo.

Particularly see the symlink thing in his PKGBUILD for the library. If he was a Gentoo user for more than a year - I was one for about 6 years -, he should know, that a library doesn't have to be symlinked to keep or get reverse dependencies compatible to updated libraries. See revdep-rebuild, which every Gentoo user knows only too well. Symlinking a library can only be a quick and dirty workaround locally on one PC until the reverse depedency is rebuilt or fixed. If such a symlink is needed by another package, than he should file a feature request to upstream. So this shows me, that Laszlo doesn't have enough scripting and packaging skills, at least not enough to be able to build and maintain packages in a semi-official binary repository, which every user trusts.

You can ask Corrado/bardo in this matter, I've worked with him together on gcc-avr packages, and it wasn't quite trivial/simple to keep it in updated format. We worked on it more days. I adopted some unclean packages that lasted me so much hours to fix, because they weren't so trivial for me. E.g. packages with kde3/kde4/qt3/qt4 compatibility problem, or cross-compiling packages with cross-toolchain. Yeah I've used revdep-rebuild while sleeping or working on other machine, because it was a long operation by me ;)

...

I also read his comment in the forums, which Xyne posted here.

Well the "Welcome to the forum" can be seen friendly. But then he writes "We must realize whether...", and just repeats, what Allan has already written. For me it sounds as he feels like already being a developer, or that he wants to presume to be one. I don't know Laszlo's intention, and I can do him wrong, but somehow it looks like craving for recognition, there are at least doubts.

So I don't know, if I could trust him enough.

I have to say, I share few concerns which were brought earlier by Allan and Loui. I find the recent huge increase of your activity a bit strange. I have to say, I do admire the time you put into all parts of Arch linux, but will need more time to be sure your intensions are really honest.

Okay, in this concrete example it wasn't sure for me he uses a good mirror, it could cause the issue too, that was my plus idea. I don't feel really that, I'm a developer. I don't like Role-playing game :)

That's a pity, they are the best :)

...

I'd suggest, not to make him a TU. I think there are enough things, he can do for Arch Linux and the community without being a TU. If he will prove beyond doubt in the future, that his attitude is good, his scripting and packaging skills are even better, and he is really trustworthy, then this can be discussed again and it can be voted again about making him a TU, but not too early. I think, there's no hurry.

Heiko

Thank you the reply.

Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

-- "How's he in the mysterious senses department?" -- Gaspode the wonder dog (Terry Pratchett, Moving Pictures)

Laszlo Papp, I share Allan's and Loui's concerns about the longevity of your interest in Arch, and I would like to focus on a couple of inaccuracies I've noticed in your original application. I'll keep this message short and not repeat any of the concerns that have already been raised by other people. While my questions below may come off as picky (and even impolite and aggressive), I think they are valid and I'd appreciate sincere answers to them. Laszlo Papp wrote:

I'd like to formally express my interest in becoming a Trusted User. My name is Laszlo Papp and I'm addicted to archlinux. :) I'm a 23 year old from Hungary, working at a resourcement/development company as Embedded Linux Developer.

In your CV [1] I read: "Since 2009. January – 2009. May Audio Dension Kft, Embedded Linux C Developer". Your current job, as seen on your CV, appears to be as a "Software Developer". However, in your TU application you've included your previous job title. What's the deal here?

I've been using Linux for more than 7 years. I used Gentoo until early 2008, and I learned a great deal about Linux in the process. I settled on Arch more than 1 year ago, nearly 1 and half :) Moving to Arch was easy for me, because of my years of experience with Gentoo. I was very attracted by the lack of dominance of money and business world and by the warm and friendly community.

So, you say you haven't used Gentoo in over 18 months. How is it then possible that you filed a bug report [2] with Gentoo this February? Besides the above inaccuracies, you've mentioned twice in this thread that you like helping other people. More specifically, you've said: - "Archlinux Contribution isn't my short distance plan only. I like to do it, I like to give helping hand for the newbies.", and - "I enjoy helping the newbies, and other users, if I can.". However, in a private discussion we had less than a month ago [3], you weren't exactly fond of the idea of helping other people. What you did seem interested in, was to know whether this lack of activity on the forums and mailing lists could become a deciding factor in a TU application. This left me with a pretty bad impression of you that day. Closing, I'd like to say that the behavior you've shown so far, and your intense enthusiasm worry me a great deal. While your intentions may be noble, I can't help thinking that you don't have the right mindset for the position you're applying for. I hope you won't get offended by any of the above. They are all valid concerns of mine and getting answers to them would greatly help me decide on how to vote. ---- [1] http://djszapi.homelinux.net/CV_en.pdf [2] http://bugs.gentoo.org/257470 [3] http://i28.tinypic.com/4zxn2h.png

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Evangelos Foutras wrote:

Laszlo Papp,

I share Allan's and Loui's concerns about the longevity of your interest in Arch, and I would like to focus on a couple of inaccuracies I've noticed in your original application. I'll keep this message short and not repeat any of the concerns that have already been raised by other people.

While my questions below may come off as picky (and even impolite and aggressive), I think they are valid and I'd appreciate sincere answers to them.

Laszlo Papp wrote:

...

I'd like to formally express my interest in becoming a Trusted User. My name is Laszlo Papp and I'm addicted to archlinux. :) I'm a 23 year old from Hungary, working at a resourcement/development company as Embedded Linux Developer.

In your CV [1] I read: "Since 2009. January – 2009. May Audio Dension Kft, Embedded Linux C Developer". Your current job, as seen on your CV, appears to be as a "Software Developer". However, in your TU application you've included your previous job title. What's the deal here?

Hello Evangelos! I wrote at my present company usb kernel drivers, and one PCI related, and now I deal with Blackfin Digital Signal Processor, and embedded linux, uClinux operating system. 'Software Developer' can mean so much things, I'd have specialized my activity so that you can get more detailed information about me. Well, if I hear that 'Software Developer', or 'Development Engineer', it doesn't mean so much for it, because this can be a lot of jobs. I've tried to service more information about me with it.

I've been using Linux for more than 7 years. I used Gentoo until early

...

2008, and I learned a great deal about Linux in the process. I settled on Arch more than 1 year ago, nearly 1 and half :) Moving to Arch was easy for me, because of my years of experience with Gentoo. I was very attracted by the lack of dominance of money and business world and by the warm and friendly community.

So, you say you haven't used Gentoo in over 18 months. How is it then possible that you filed a bug report [2] with Gentoo this February?

Because it wasn't a black and white changing, I booted sometimes gentoo to add this a one plus facility. My gentoo system stayed on a separate harddisk, I can boot it anytime, or chroot to it, but recently I use Archlinux the most. And of course there were some situations at my company when I needed to use other distribution too, like Fedora, Ubuntu, because of the customer requirements or something similar.

Besides the above inaccuracies, you've mentioned twice in this thread that you like helping other people. More specifically, you've said:

- "Archlinux Contribution isn't my short distance plan only. I like to do it, I like to give helping hand for the newbies.", and - "I enjoy helping the newbies, and other users, if I can.".

However, in a private discussion we had less than a month ago [3], you weren't exactly fond of the idea of helping other people. What you did seem interested in, was to know whether this lack of activity on the forums and mailing lists could become a deciding factor in a TU application. This left me with a pretty bad impression of you that day.

Sorry, if I caused bad impression with it. In that time I didn't have so much times for it, it's sure, I had got lot of works at the company, and all my contribution that time was packaging, but when I closed a big project by the company, I could help on forum and mailing list too. It can occur in the future too so that I won't have so much time like now, because of a company project. It doesn't mean that nothing, but lesser.

Closing, I'd like to say that the behavior you've shown so far, and your intense enthusiasm worry me a great deal. While your intentions may be noble, I can't help thinking that you don't have the right mindset for the position you're applying for.

I hope you won't get offended by any of the above. They are all valid concerns of mine and getting answers to them would greatly help me decide on how to vote.

---- [1] http://djszapi.homelinux.net/CV_en.pdf [2] http://bugs.gentoo.org/257470 [3] http://i28.tinypic.com/4zxn2h.png

I try to answer for all your questions, if I can, thank you. Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

Laszlo Papp wrote:

I try to answer for all your questions, if I can, thank you.

Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. Your answers were enlightening. Regards,

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 17:07, Daenyth Blank wrote:

Laszlo Papp schrieb:

...

Hello, I'd like to formally express my interest in becoming a Trusted User.

I haven't looked over his packages yet, but the attitude is good and I've seen him be quite helpful on the ML.

+1

I didn't realize that Lazlo was djszapi when I wrote this. Consider my position reversed. He's been quite annoying on IRC, nagging people both on there and over jabber. I don't think he's a good fit for the rest of the team. -1

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Jaroslav Lichtblau wrote:

On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 10:22:16PM +0200, Laszlo Papp wrote:

...

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Mateusz Herych wrote:

...

Hello Laszlo.

I see many of your vim-* packages has the same voters: alephlg, Gaboo, raron, zsomi, Suicidium, rhen Let's look into their IDs..

alephlg - 16066 Gaboo - 16077 raron - 16081 zsomi - 16070 Suicidium - 16075 rhen - 16080

Does it mean these accounts were registered in the same time? If so, that looks a bit strange for me. Could you explain it? Maybe i'm wrong.

Regards, Mateusz.

Hello Mateusz!

As I said similarly earlier:

I took an advertisment in vim channel on freenode, and among work

colleague, > and friends, familiars. Something similar, "More vim plugins are available > in AUR, you can try it, if you feel so". It's true I've got so much VIM fan > friends, colleague, familiars in the real life, and on the internet too. > Maybe this is the reason.

Are all those friends of your also running Arch Linux? The names of the voters do not change much and also voted on packages you proposed to bring into [community] repository - reaching the 10 votes limit. Did you advertised those packages too to them?

Yeah, but I adopted quite a few from those packages. I see packages from those with 2/9/15/17/27/62 votes too. I didn't follow really who voted or who didn't. But I can see one thing, embedded development and related packages are needed by some people, I started to deal with those packages because of this, and because I use those ones too.

...

I didn't take deeper researching in this matter, who voted for those package, or who didn't, because I think it's their private decision to vote for a package or not, so i didn't asked them. I keep in respect their decision. But I always vote for my packages :)

Nevertheless I've disowned most of the vim related packages, because I'd like to deal with embedded development packages better.

Not that keeping those vim plugins would take much work, they don't change that offen to my knowledge.

Not so much work, but sometimes it can be hard. I've seen already that It changed after an updating from a simple script plugin, file to a more complicated package, with other handling, e.g. vimballed and sometimes the new update is buggy firstly. But the real reason is I'd like provide embedded development related packages more than vim packages.

...

I won't be very active tomorrow in the daytime, but I will reply for all your questions at evening.

Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

Thanks for all those quick answers, that keeps the discussion swift.

Jaroslav

-- When devfs went into the tree, the word was "at least it will make people look at the code". Well, it did. Veni, vidi, vomere.

- Al Viro on linux-kernel

No problem, just ask me :) Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

On Sun 02 Aug 2009 22:47 -0430, Angel Velásquez wrote:

First of all, I don't want point you about the case of the 'phantom' votes and the 'phantom' accounts, so..

Loui can you give us more info about this? To make a real proof?, for example date and hour of the creation of the account, last ip who accesed these accounts, or something more powerful to make the proof if Laszlo or other person created them.

No I can't provide any proof, and I actually think some of these accusations are not really fair. I am impressed by how calmly Laszlo has handled this too. Anyhow I hope he can stick with the community, get to know how we work, and perhaps become a TU somewhere down the road. I don't really believe he has malicious intent.

On Tue 04 Aug 2009 12:20 -0430, Angel Velásquez wrote:

And yes, I am relly impressed by how calmly he took that, an old advisement of my country is 'who stay shut up is giving' (translate advices sometimes can be senseless) but basicly means that a person who don't dare to defend himself, is because he have nothing to say.

Hey if you're gonna give us your country's sayings they should be in the original language too. Hehe.

2009/8/4 Angel Velásquez

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Loui Chang wrote:

...

On Sun 02 Aug 2009 22:47 -0430, Angel Velásquez wrote:

...

First of all, I don't want point you about the case of the 'phantom' votes and the 'phantom' accounts, so..

Loui can you give us more info about this? To make a real proof?, for example date and hour of the creation of the account, last ip who accesed these accounts, or something more powerful to make the proof if Laszlo or other person created them.

No I can't provide any proof, and I actually think some of these accusations are not really fair. I am impressed by how calmly Laszlo has handled this too. Anyhow I hope he can stick with the community, get to know how we work, and perhaps become a TU somewhere down the road. I don't really believe he has malicious intent.

Well, I don't think that he has malicious intentions but, childish and

lacking of maturity can be enough to do 'malicious' things, so I am not judging or pointing him as a malicious person, even I am not sure if he did that, but I am saying that doing this kind of acts are childish and unmature more than 'malicious'.

And yes, I am relly impressed by how calmly he took that, an old advisement of my country is 'who stay shut up is giving' (translate advices sometimes can be senseless) but basicly means that a person who don't dare to defend himself, is because he have nothing to say.

Hello! I said I will try to answer for your question in the evening/night, because I was busy in the daytime at the company in this period. Yesterday evening I was very busy with my company project, sorry, but I'm trying now to answer for you. This is the question I answered more times in this application, so I can't add new idea to it, really. The worst thing in it I'm absolutely incapable, and if i can see well you too now :((

Anyway, Loui, we should think in improve our votation system, so this fact (even if not truth, even if it wasn't Laszlo) will open our eyes :).

Good Luck anyway

-- Angel Velásquez angvp @ irc.freenode.net Linux Counter: #359909

It's a good vision, I think it would be good for the community, I support it. Best Regards, Laszlo Papp

On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 16:20, Laszlo Papp wrote:

Hello TUs!

Thanks this discussion period for you! It was very edifying for me, really thank you.

Even though I still have my doubts about whether or not you're a good for for the TU team here, I really have to commend you. I don't recall anyone taking our criticism with such aplomb. I think that the decision to keep improving will only help you. Kudos to you :)

Excerpts from Daenyth Blank's message of Sun Aug 02 17:55:27 -0400 2009:

He's been quite annoying on IRC, nagging people both on there and over jabber. I don't think he's a good fit for the rest of the team.

-1

I'm sorry to be late, I've just returned from vacation. I'd like to share my experience with this individual. I can't speak for his packaging or development skills which may indeed be up to scratch, but in terms of personal correspondence, I'm not impressed. A couple months ago, he mysteriously added me on google talk. I hadn't spoken to him nor heard of him before. I asked him who he was and what was going on. He told me he was busy at work and that he'd get back to me later. So I decided to give him a chance and the next day or the day after, I tried again. After a couple days of trying, he finally told me that he's an Arch Linux user and that he thinks I'm affiliated with TUs (he told me that I applied for TU at one point, which was not true). I told him that I have never applied for a TU position. At this point, he tells me, "okay, remove me from your list if you think so". We speak for a while longer, with me trying to figure out what exactly he wants and who he is. I ask him for his name, which he does not give me. Eventually, he just says, "i wouldn't like in touch such a mentality person." I then ask what mentality, having no clue as to what I've done to offend him. He just says "bye" and doesn't respond again. "Garoth is such a mentality person" is still in the topic in a Mercenaries Guild channel, so we're having a good laugh. At this point, I tell him that I don't really like his attitude either and remove him, never to hear from him again. So clearly this is a greatly shortened summary of the events. What do I gather from this? He wanted to know me because he thought I was knew some TUs or was one. When he found out that I wasn't, he quickly lost interest, apparently disliked my mentality (?), and started ignoring me. Ironically enough, I've actually known Daenyth for quite a while. As such, the above comment about him trying to social engineer his way rings true with me. Whether or not this should affect his chances of getting in, I don't know. I guess he said that he'll work on his communication skills. I'm currently not overly convinced in a forthcoming improvement in personalty though. -- Andrei Thorp, Developer: Xandros Corp. (http://www.xandros.com)

Hi Laszlo,

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away.

I wanted to say that I was also impressed with the way that you handled the various questions and criticisms and I appreciate your effort to respond to these in a calm and clear manner. I hope that this experience will not change your attitude towards Arch and that you will continue to contribute as before. I also hope to see your actions dispel the doubts that have been expressed here.

Xyne

*fixed the line-wrapping*