[arch-general] We have lost the desktop war. The reason? Windows 7.

[Rafa Griman]

Hi :)


On Monday 26 October 2009 11:57:59 RedShift wrote:
> This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided to
>  post my story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience in
>  general, not the technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.


No intention to make this a real flame war, just got some 
questions/advice/info 0:)


> I've been working these past few months with KDE 4.3 and it feels very
>  sluggish and incomplete. I can't enable the desktop effects because that
>  makes things even slower. I'm doing this on a fairly decent setup, an AMD
>  Sempron 2 Ghz with an nVidia FX5500.


I've got a Dell Latitude D610 with an Intel VGA:

$ lspci | grep -i vga
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 915GM/GMS/910GML 
Express Graphics Controller (rev 03)

1 GB RAM

$ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
vendor_id       : GenuineIntel
cpu family      : 6
model           : 13
model name      : Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1.86GHz
stepping        : 8
cpu MHz         : 1867.000
cache size      : 2048 KB
fdiv_bug        : no
hlt_bug         : no
f00f_bug        : no
coma_bug        : no
fpu             : yes
fpu_exception   : yes
cpuid level     : 2
wp              : yes
flags           : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca 
cmov clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss tm pbe nx up bts est tm2
bogomips        : 3726.83
clflush size    : 64
power management:


Relevant software:
	kernel26 2.6.31.5-1
	xorg-server 1.6.3.901-1
	intel-dri 7.5.1-2
	xf86-video-intel 2.8.1-1
	KDE* 4.3.2-4

Using KMS for my Intel VGA.

I've got to say I've got a very snappy KDE running. Doesn't "feel" slow, 
response is immediate, ...


¿Could you be having some hardware issues? Maybe not because KDE 3.5 and XP 
seem to run fine on your system.

BTW, not running ANY effects because they get on my nerves. Don't find them 
productive (I don't see how a snowing background or blowing up windows can 
make you more productive).


BTW, I've also got an MSI Wind with 2 GB RAM, Intel VGA and Atom (dual core) 
and same version software with the same results: sanppy, fast response, ...

Can't really compare to MS-Windows since I don't use it/them. But I can 
compare to KDE 3.5 (since I used it before on the same hw) and 4.3 is not 
slower than 3.5 IMHO on the same hardware.

@ home I've got a dual-core AMD + 8 GB RAM + ATI with 512 MB dedicated RAM. In 
this case I'm _NOT_ using ATI's drivers, I'm using the radeonhd drivers and 
everything seems to work fine: fast response, ... Not slow at all. On this 
system I've got a 2nd partition with openSUSE + ATI drivers + KDE 3.5 and TBH, 
I see no better performance with KDE 3.5.

My guess is that there's something wrongly configured or installed in your KDE 
4 installation. Check this:
	- deactivate nepomuk and Akonadi
	- delete /tmp/k* /var/tmp/k*
	- delete your .kde4 and .kde and .local dirs (you can also choose
	  creating a new account and see if it's "faster")

[...]


> So when should we have started working at a better desktop environment for
> Linux?


I think the KDE team already is, but of course, that's MHO ;)

[...]


> So basically, where are we at?
> KDE 3.5 is Windows XP
> KDE 4.3 is Windows Vista
> ??? is Windows 7
> 
> 
> When are we getting to the Windows 7 stage?


KDE 4.5? ;)


> Microsoft didn't do a big advertising campaign for the launch of Windows 7,
> nevertheless they delivered a big slap in the face to the Linux desktop
> environments. The numbers speak for themselves, Windows 7 has already sold
>  more copies in its first week than Windows Vista did in its first month.
>  And with good riddance, Windows 7 really is better than Windows Vista.
>  Microsoft recognized the problems with Windows Vista and dealt with them.
>  And dealt with them swiftly if you ask me, doing it in less then 3 years.


MS _DOES_ have some help from IHVs ;) Those IHVs preinstall Windows on their 
laptops, netbooks, ... + MS also has some very deep pockets (filled with $) to 
"convince" those IHVs to preinstall MS-Windows. Not only that, their deep 
pockets help them "talk" with polititians (at least here in Spain that helps a 
lot ;)

If we (KDE Community) had those deep pockets filled to the brim with $ just as 
MS does:
	- we could pay more full time developers
	- we could pay more full time developers to solely profile
	  and debug KDE
	- "convince" IHVs to preinstall KDE
	- we could "speak" with polititians (at least here in Spain)
	- ...

I'm not saying money = hapiness, but it does help a bit sometimes ;)

Resources on one side and the other are not the same. MS has way more full 
time developers than KDE has.

> Conclusion
> 
> We are losing ground. We are losing it fast. Our competitors recognize what
>  the user wants and delivered.


This reminds me of a time (long ago) when MS "prooved" that Win2k was faster 
serving files that Linux+Samba. While the FLOSS Community was shouting and 
arguing whether the benchmark was well done, Mr. Torvalds said that was good 
news since now we would know where we have to apply fixes and what fixes would 
have to be applied. I think this situation is similar.


> If we are comparing enterprise desktops, there's no going around Red Hat.
>  The current Red Hat desktop (5.4) ships with KDE 3.5, while its succesor
>  RHEL 6 will be, if looking what Fedora brings now, shipped with KDE 4.2 or
>  4.3. That means KDE 4.2/4.3 will be the main desktop for enterprises for
>  at least the next 3 years. A disgrace if you ask me. Users will be
>  comparing desktop environments and they will find Windows 7 or Mac OS X to
>  be better. After the damage RHEL 6 will have done to the reputation of the
>  Linux desktop, it will take again as many years to rectify the damage
>  done. Granted if we will have a solid desktop environment comparable to
>  Windows 7 by the time RHEL 7 gets released. Which I can't help but doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> My top KDE 4.3 annoyances:
> * Slooooowwww. Logging in takes a multifold of times it did under KDE 3.5,
> repainting windows takes up a lot of time


Check hardware, drivers, configs, ... What I said previously.


> * The battery status applet is buggy, it only shows the actual percentage
>  after you've hovered it with the mouse, even when you've set it to always
>  display. The scale it uses is also difficult to interpret. These bugs have
>  been reported a long time ago and are still not fixed.


I have no such problems on my MSI Wind and my Dell. BTW I also installed 
ArchLinux + KDE 4.3 on an Acer ONE for a friend and she has no such problems 
either.


> * The run dialog is useless. The reason is the history function. It can't
> display a full history when you start typing, you have to type alot more.
>  Having a pull down menu and using the arrow keys to select the entry you
>  want is alot faster. Even Microsoft knows they shouldn't touch that
>  dialog, it still works like a charm in windows 7.


Can't reproduce that here. History displays and changes as I type, no lag. 
BTW, I'm not the fastest typer, but I use more than 2 fingers ;)


> * Double clicking the system icon in the titlebar doesn't always work to
>  close an application (the system icon is the left-most icon in the
>  titlebar). This bug has also been reported a long time ago and still not
>  fixed.


Never tried that, TBH, always use the "X" on the far right.


> * I get a full 10 minutes of extra runtime on my laptop when I switched
>  back to 3.5


Not here.


> * Power management is buggy in KDE 4.3 and sometimes powerdevil just loses
> its settings


Haven't lost any settings on KDE 4.x ... and I'm using XFS   =:0


> * Some settings KDE 3.5 used to have aren't there anymore in KDE 4.3.


Somethings haven't been ported to KDE 4.x yet. Maybe for KDE 4.4 or 4.5.


> * Where's my "home" icon!!!??? :-(


¿What for? You've got "Konqueror Profiles" widget ;)


HTH

   Rafa

-- 
"We cannot treat computers as Humans. Computers need love."

rgriman at skype.com
rgriman at jabberes.org

Happily using KDE 4.3.1 :)