[arch-general] We have lost the desktop war. The reason? Windows 7.

hollunder at gmx.at hollunder at gmx.at
Mon Oct 26 12:05:54 EDT 2009


On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:49:01 -0500
Aaron Griffin <aaronmgriffin at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 9:01 AM,  <hollunder at gmx.at> wrote:
> > Am I happy to hear that.
> > I say this because I'm under the impression that people see only two
> > kinds of linux uses:
> > 1) The traditional server
> > 2) The Desktop
> >
> > You can, at this time, still do both, but everything in between is
> > getting more and more difficult.
> >
> > The problem is that the Desktop Environments, GNOME and KDE, in
> > their quest for "integrated desktop experience" push more and more
> > stuff that's really only useful to those DEs deeper and deeper into
> > the system.
> > If you as a user need or want it or not, you get it.
> >
> >
> > I'd like to provide an example.
> > I'm using an oldish PC and like to pick the apps I use myself,
> > therefor the DE's so-called 'integration' is just unnecessary and
> > rather hindering in the background. I also like configuration. Those
> > are the main reasons I don't use DEs.
> >
> > Recently I tried to figure out what console-kit is actually good
> > for. Here's an excerpt of the manual that I especially like:
> > Defining the Problem
> > To be written.
> > http://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html#id312255
> >
> > I figured out that it's only useful for something called 'fast user
> > switching', something I definitely don't need.
> > When trying to remove it I figured that HAL requires it.
> > HAL also requires something called policy-kit, yet another thing I
> > don't know what it does.
> > I recompiled HAL without either, and the system still works as
> > before.
> >
> > Somewhere during the research I figured that HAL is supposed to be
> > replaced by something called device-kit. HAL isn't really needed
> > says the author in an email, pretty much all the work is done by
> > udev etc.. So I figured, hey, why not just remove HAL, this way the
> > kits won't come back with the next update, and all I use HAL for is
> > mounting usb drives, something that can be done with udev rules as
> > well.
> >
> > Well, trying to do this I found five apps requiring it, the most
> > surprising: xorg-server
> >
> > Conclusion:
> > Yeah, great, install xorg for a minimal graphical desktop, what you
> > get is console-kit, for a minor feature in a monster DE.
> > When will "Desktop" people start to see that they are being
> > intrusive? They live in their own small bubble called GNOME or KDE
> > and can't ever imagine anyone not wanting to use this.
> > Sorry for this "slightly" off topic rant, but it annoys me on a
> > regular basis when I see applications depend on gnome or kde,
> > mostly for some stupid reason called 'integration' which really
> > isn't of much use in the specific DE they integrate with and a
> > hindrance to everyone who's not running exactly that DE.
> >
> > So please, next time you call something integration, think beyond
> > the bubble. In our little Linux world with limited developer time
> > we need real integration, real solutions and still
> > freedom of choice.
> 
> Just a personal reply to say that I loved this email. I've been so
> enraged with this recently. I actually get _angry_ about the xorg hal
> integration (I have never used hal) - as it means that BY DEFAULT
> starting xorg fails because it has no keyboard or mouse; you can,
> thankfully, shut off the hal integration with a Option
> "AutoAddDevices" "False" in the ServerFlags section of xorg.conf. But
> still, what the fuck? For all the history of xorg, it has correctly
> done the basics of detection a ordinary mouse and keyboard. But not
> any longer. For what reason? I HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA!
> 
> Thanks for the email. It makes me feel like I'm not alone in my
> absolute hatred for the direction these things are going.

Thanks for your reply Arvid and Aaron.
I'm sure there are a lot more people who feel this way,
your replies make me a bit more confident that this situation can be
changed.

Maybe something can be done on Arch to work against this development?
The closer to the core a package is the more careful we have to be with
dependencies, I think. It's easy to replace a text editor, impossible
to replace xorg, etc..

The other thing I can think of is talking to upstream. Maybe they're
not that aware of this issue and think along the lines of: "Everyone
has HAL installed anyway, it's no problem if we
use it to do xyz."

Philipp


More information about the arch-general mailing list