[aur-general] TU membership application

Jean Lucas jean at 4ray.co
Sun Aug 18 08:35:10 UTC 2019

On Sat, 2019-08-17 at 23:46 -0400, Eli Schwartz via aur-general wrote:
> On 8/17/19 2:49 PM, Jean Lucas via aur-general wrote:
> > That said, I think its a bit unfair to say that I went off and
> > found
> > another sponsor without batting an eye - asking Alexander and
> > Sergej
> > seemed appropriate as they'd both adopted one of my packages, I had
> > worked with you to resolve some of my issues, I've gone over all of
> > my
> > packages with a fine-toothed comb many times now, and got more help
> > as
> > needed. I didn't suppose that having you decline sponsorship should
> > deter me from eventually applying until getting your approval. I
> > regret that we didn't have better communication, though.
> I don't see anyone implying you aren't allowed to apply until the
> person
> who declined to sponsor you says it is okay.
> All that anyone is saying is that you're supposed to provide fair
> disclosure of the fact that it happened.

I agree.

> On 8/17/19 6:59 PM, Jean Lucas via aur-general wrote:
> > On Sat, 2019-08-17 at 21:58 +0200, Robin Broda wrote:
> > > On 8/17/19 8:49 PM, Jean Lucas wrote:
> > > > In totality, I asked 4 TUs - Alexander, Sergej, Alad, and you.
> > > 
> > > Why did you not make this clear in your application?
> > 
> > Since there is no formal guideline for writing an application
> > thought it sufficient to include the names of those who agreed to
> > sponsor me.
> > 
> > > I'm sure you've read the wiki article on Trusted Users[1] -
> > > > *Note*: Should the TU you contact decline to sponsor your
> > > > application,
> > > > you should make this fact known if you seek sponsorship from
> > > > another TU.
> > > 
> > > Have you at least told xyproto & sergej that you have approached
> > > alad
> > > and me,
> > > and the reason for me declining sponsorship?
> > 
> > I have not. I contacted Alexander before you something like 2
> > months
> > ago, and your formal refusal for sponsorship came in about 2 weeks
> > later. Admittedly, I forgot to mention that you'd declined my
> > sponsorship to both of them.
> Hmm, did you contact him about sponsorship, specifically? You say
> that
> he offered to sponsor you "after a few chat sessions", and that your
> first contact with him (about him adopting your package) was before
> your
> first contact with Robin. If you only contacted him about sponsorship
> after Robin declined, I'm not even sure why it is relevant if you
> contacted Alexander about unrelated things. If you were in discussion
> with Alexander about sponsorship before you asked Robin, I could at
> least understand how such forgetfulness happened.

Alexander and I initially talked over IRC about my package he wanted to
adopt. About a day later, I pinged him on IRC about the TU role,
shortly (about a half-day or another day later) after which I solicited
a review of my profile for sponsoring. I think it was either that same
day or one or two days later that I poked Alad and Robin on IRC about
the same, one after the other, soliciting review of my profile for
sponsorship. As mentioned, Alad never saw my solicitation, so the
conversations only proceeded with Alexander and Robin.

About two weeks after the IRC chats, after having previously sent a
follow-up email to both Alexander and Robin requesting an update on
their willingness to sponsor me, I emailed Sergej asking if he would
review my profile for purposes of sponsorship, after which a whole 30
minutes passed, and Robin's formal refusal for sponsorship landed in my

> On 8/17/19 8:46 PM, Jean Lucas via aur-general wrote:
> > For the record, it says "Should the TU you contact decline to
> > sponsor
> > your application, you should make this fact known if you seek
> > sponsorship from another TU." - that should be reworded to
> > something
> > similar to what you said instead, given the recent amendment to the
> > TU
> > bylaws of needing two sponsors instead of one.
> > 
> > Either way, I had forgotten about that part, so I failed to bring
> > it
> > up with the TUs I was in contact with. My apologies. In hindsight,
> > it
> > would've been a pragmatic idea.
> I... really don't see what is confusing or ambiguous about the wiki? 

The wiki says "[...] the first step is to find a TU who agrees to
sponsor you. Once sponsored, you should write a witty application
[...]", as well as "Should *the TU* you contact [...]", all still
indicative of a one-TU requirement.

> My
> reading of the wiki does not say that you must acknowledge it to the
> whole world on this mailing list (it may or may not be a good idea to
> do
> so) but you sure had better acknowledge this to the TUs who you later
> approach for sponsorship. At least in that much, the wiki is very,
> very
> clear.

I agree. My point is that needing to mention any previous sponsors I
contacted to other TUs - we can assume this means regardless of whether
or not they accepted or declined sponsorship - is not what is said on
the wiki, is all.

> I think it's more than pragmatic. It's required. It's a matter of
> trust:
> you want the community to trust you and put you in a position where a
> great many Arch users trust you by default, and part of that is that
> if
> someone had objections in the past to your being on the team, then
> you
> should at least let your sponsors know the position you are in, which
> you are asking them to stake their reputation on. They will want to
> have
> the opportunity to evaluate and hopefully decide that those reasons
> no
> longer apply (or they disagree with the other prospective sponsor's
> reasoning, which is also okay, because we are allowed to have
> differences of opinion).
> Frankly, even if it wasn't an official rule of the application
> process,
> I would still consider it to be common courtesy.

No contest there.

In hindsight, I think that I indeed should've mentioned to the 3 TUs
that I was in contact with all of them. As for mentioning that I
attempted to reach out to Alad to no avail, I suppose I could've as
well. I was caught between the uncertainties of sponsorship from
Alexander and Robin, so I opted to not mention the other to both of
them or to Sergej. Their formal answers came a lot later, and it did
not occur to me then to notify Alexander and Sergej of Robin's decline
for sponsorship after the fact. I now do see that I should've.
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