[arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch

[Leonid Isaev]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:38:15 +0200
Heiko Baums <lists at baums-on-web.de> wrote:

> Am Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:33:39 -0400
> schrieb Brandon Watkins <bwat47 at gmail.com>:
> 
> > Systemd and pulseaudio are completely different pieces of software
> > with different purposes. Comparing them like that just because of the
> > author is comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> Sorry, it is not. I see that PA is totally not complete and doesn't
> support at least half of the professional use cases. And I see that it's
> the same with systemd. So what's the difference?
> 
> They are both developed by the same person who seemingly doesn't have
> much knowledge about professional computer usage and only cares about
> some desktop users.
> 
> With PA it's currently not such a problem since I don't need to use a
> distro or a desktop environment which forces me to install PA.
> 
> With systemd it's worse since the init system is a very serious and
> important piece of the system. And if this doesn't support every
> professional use case and isn't proved to be really reliable, it just
> shouldn't be made to a de facto standard.
> 
> And if I can't trust PA how can I trust an even more important piece of
> software written by the same person?
> 
> Btw., look at systemd-cryptsetup. Yes, meanwhile my use case is filed
> upstream and allegedly and hopefully fixed. But it shows that at least
> one use case was just forgotten or in other words it was not well
> enough thought out. The latter is the biggest problem.
> 
> Like I said before, some of Lennart's ideas may, say, seem to be quite
> interesting, and maybe sysvinit is also not the perfect init system.
> But Lennart's software is just not implemented good enough.

And here I thought that there were some SuSE people from udev team behind
systemd... Do we always have to get personal?

> 
> If somebody doesn't care about the professional users when writing on
> software, would he really care about the professional users when
> writing the other software?

AFAICT professional = constructive: if you find a problem there is no
point in admiring yourself and calling everyone else morons, help fixing it
instead. Otherwise, please show me a piece of software which is free of bugs.

> 
> I really haven't seen so many and so long discussions and so many
> concerns and very negative opinions about a software than I have seen
> about Lennart's software. And I'm not only reading this mailing list.
> See e.g. pro-linux.de or heise.de (both in German). Every time when
> there's an article about PA or systemd a lot of people are railing
> against PA, systemd and Lennart. And it's definitely not only me.

Seems to me that some people have way too much free time...

> 
> There must be a reason, and the reasons are always mentioned. There are
> bug reports upstream, but they are just ignored. Lennart mentions all
> those "rants" in at least one of his documentations. So he even knows
> about all those criticisms. What's he doing? He ignores them totally. In
> the same sentence he just laughs at those people, and call them so to
> say (not literally) stupid.
> 
> Is this really a good and trustworthy attitude? I think, not.
> 
> And all those comments here like "oh no, not this again", "Please guys,
> not again..." or "Take your concerns upstream, ...", is really not
> helpful. On the contrary this all is also an issue for downstream. See
> the ongoing infiltration of initscripts by systemd here in Arch Linux.
> Sorry to say that, but it's really not the best idea.

And do you think it's a good idea to spam my inbox? Ah, right, I should
unsubscribe.

> 
> Keep PA and systemd totally optional including every part of it, and
> everything is Ok. I'm sure nobody would mind. But as long as there are
> people working on making both software a de facto standard and forcing
> it on everybody, this discussion will never end. Not only here.

Noone is forcing anything on anyone...

> 
> Just take all those people who have a lot of concerns for some very
> good reasons serious.

Examples welcome...

> 
> There wouldn't be so many, so long discussions every time PA, systemd
> or Lennart Poettering is mentioned if this all was such a very good,
> perfect and professional software. If this was the case then I'm sure
> that everybody couldn't wait to get it and a lot of people would ask
> when it will be available. Instead a lot of people on the web rail
> against them. So think about that, and think long and good.
> 
> Maybe there are a few use cases for which PA is working and for which
> PA makes sense. But there are a lot of use cases for which PA does not
> work. The same for systemd. So think about the use cases for which they
> don't work.
> 
> Btw., someone else here on this mailing list has mentioned a lot of
> software which, as he said, do the same as systemd does allegedly
> better than sysvinit, but on top of sysvinit and in a more UNIX like
> way. There came not even one word, one short discussion about those
> suggestions. It was not considered if those software could be the better
> alternative. Instead the systemd fanboys kept on hyping systemd.

That was Gentoo's OpenRC. Except the "Unix-like philosophy" (with the emphasis
on philosophy) what is the fundamental difference between the two?

> 
> If you buy a book at Amazon e.g., what do you read? Only the best
> 5-star reviews or also the 1-star reviews? I tell you something. Not
> always but a lot of times the fewer 1-star reviews are the better and
> more realistic ones.

I don't read reviews because relevant people you should listen to are too busy
to write them.

> 
> Heiko



-- 
Leonid Isaev
GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D
Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE  775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
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