[aur-general] I want to update gtkhtml4 in AUR

[Eli Schwartz]

On 1/27/19 8:04 PM, hagar wrote:
>> HTTP 403 is an HTTP code and is therefore documented with the HTTP RPC.
>>
>> .git/config is a file part of a git repository and is documented with
>> the git application. The use of git especially is understood to be,
>> well, understood before using the AUR.
>>
>> Arch Linux, as far as I'm aware, assumes you know about how to use
>> tools like git and I would also assume that you are capable of figuring
>> out what an HTTP error code means based on something simple like the
>> Wikipedia page that discusses HTTP status codes in detail.
>>
>> If you feel otherwise though, the Arch Wiki can be edited by any Arch
>> user that creates an account on the Wiki, but that's not something the
>> TUs or others like me in this channel are responsible for since its
>> kinda assumed to be at least familiar with git before using it (which
>> the AUR uses it).
>>
>> Mark
> 
> I am concerned that the experienced users of tgis list dont seem to want
> to help "newbies"
> 
> Any time they feel a question is in the realm of "Common Sense" they
> seem to make "Assumptions"
> 
> then the user is summarily "told off".

This is correct! We do not want to help newbies.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux#User_centrality

Arch Linux, the distribution, is "targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux
user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read
the documentation, and solve their own problems".

It is generally considered that the minimum requirement for running Arch
Linux is a willingness and understanding of how to google for error
messages before asking for help.

If that is too much for people to handle, that doesn't make them a bad
person -- it just means they would be happier with a Linux distribution
that was actually designed with the target userbase of newbies who just
want things to work and receive help in getting it to work as fast as
possible.

> A general question to the community.
> 
> Do you want new users or not?

No. Arch Linux has never attempted to advertise itself with the goal of
acquiring new users. Rather, Arch Linux has attempted to position itself
as a useful, advanced technical platform for doing things that existing
users wish to happen.

We do not *turn away* new users -- on the contrary, we encourage anyone
who wishes to learn more about Arch, to feel welcome in doing so. But we
will not change Arch in order to do so.

> You cant just make assumptions.
> 
> You cant just tell people that the it is well documented.

But it is well documented, as far as I can tell.

For example:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Git#Protocol_defaults
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_User_Repository#Submitting_packages

as well as the clone urls listed on the aurweb website, which as I said
before, explicitly refer to https:// as "read-only".

> Why don't you just help them along in the first place. Build them up and
> actually point them to helpful pages first.

But I find myself more interested in interesting questions, rather than
just being here to tell people where the documentation is. Who are you
to tell me what I should find more enjoyable?

If you want someone to be available to point people to the
documentation, no one is stopping you from fulfilling that role
yourself. Which in fact you did. And I have merely stepped in to correct
what I felt to be a technical incorrectness: namely, that we do document
the process, and I am unaware of any bug in that documentation. (I have
selfish interests in caring whether the documentation is in order -- I
am one of the aurweb maintainers. But as far as I can tell, the aurweb
is doing everything it can, here.)

> Then actually check the documentation from a new users point of view to
> see if it -
> 
> 1. Has missing information.
> 
> 2. Can be misinterpreted. (Not everyone has good language skills.)

The documentation is a collaborative effort, *precisely* because it is
not obvious when things are missing. It's a wiki for a very good reason.

If I thought there was missing information, obviously I'd fix it.

Obviously I do not think there is missing information, because I
understand it just fine. This is a very common problem with
knowledgeable people who don't need the documentation, that they think
things are so obvious that they don't know what needs to be spelled out
to others.

If you think there is documentation missing, why don't you add it, since
you're the one who seems to understand what is missing?

> I am experienced in Linux, from LTFS, to Ubuntu. But have never had to
> use git until now. I missed a simple thing that I managed to fix myself.
> 
> But I never make the assumption that others can do what I do.
> 
> 
> Please rather than flame new users, can we nurture and train them
> instead. Give them specific help rather than a general "Read the docs."

Who is flaming anyone? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_(Internet)

> I have found that for every person who has a problem and asks the
> question there are hundreds of people who have the same problem But
> don't ask.
> 
> 
> If anyone has watched Sesame Street you will be familiar with -
> 
> Asking questions is a good way of getting answers.

Asking questions is also a good way of:

- getting people to do things so you don't have to, like googling for
 https://www.google.com/search?q=The+requested+URL+returned+error%3A+403
  and using the very first search result

- avoiding the process of actually doing things, by talking about it
  instead editing the wiki.

> Please, Please, can the experienced users here help rather than flame.

Again with the flaming. Who is flaming? Why is it more important to talk
about who may be flaming who, than editing the wiki?

-- 
Eli Schwartz
Bug Wrangler and Trusted User

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